4 ms·

We have yet to see how the US reacts when a massive section of it wants to secede. India and China both face a significantly more difficult geopolitical realit

by screye 7y ago

We have yet to see how the US reacts when a massive section of it wants to secede. India and China both face a significantly more difficult geopolitical reality than the USA. Some of the world's most westernized and developed countries (Spain, Israel) are starting to use violence and suppressive tactics now that they are faced with even the smallest amount of secessionist unrest. Kashmir is one of the most militarized border zones alongside the West Bank. I fully agree that there might be better and less suppressive methods that the Govt. can use to deal with the Kashmir issue, but to act as though a USA like policy would work in countries with very different ground realities is being willfully arrogant. At the risk of sounding too cold, if the choice was between death of a few million people (which India has a long history of) and complete destruction of communication frameworks. I would choose that latter. Now the big problem with what the Indian Govt. is doing, is that this has been going on for almost a year and they are making no efforts to bring Kashmir back to "normalcy". Such draconian policies should only come into place for very short durations with measures for removal, the second unrest goes below a certain point.

reaperducer 7y ago
We have yet to see how the US reacts when a massive section of it wants to secede. We have? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Civil_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Civil_War
- gbear605 7y ago
  The context was specifically for consumer encryption technologies, which wasn’t an issue during the Civil War.
  - loeg 7y ago
    That really is not clear from the statement: "We have yet to see how the US reacts when a massive section of it wants to secede," which is obviously false.
    - sykick 7y ago
      It's not false because we don't know what the reaction would be if this happened today. The reaction of people 160 years ago is not at all predictive of what would happen today. Especially if the issue was not a moral one as it was 160 years ago.
    - scarejunba 7y ago
      Its obvious falseness is usually a hint that there are contextual conversational modifiers that are implicit. Conversationally, if your objective is information exchange, it is usually more productive to ask for clarification than to refute one interpretation.
- AsyncAwait 7y ago
  During the Internet age, is what OP probably meant.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
duxup 7y ago
Isn't cutting off communication / or various forms of oppression often part of the path to the death of a few million people? I'm not convinced one is being traded for another... possibly quite the opposite.
- product50 7y ago
  No - it is not. For most Indians, encryption of messaging/communication is a recent phenomenon popularized by Whatsapp. Millions of people have already died as part of religious, naxal and territorial violence in the past decades. Encryption is not a magical solution to everything.
saagarjha 7y ago
> Such draconian policies should only come into place for very short durations with measures for removal One of the problems when giving a government powers like this for a “short duration” is they tend to end up sticking a lot longer than that.
loeg 7y ago
We had a pretty big experiment with federalism and secession in the 19th century, actually.
- freeAgent 7y ago
  Yeah, but they didn't have VPNs back then ;)
  - scrumbledober 7y ago
    any time i had to use the VPN at my previous job it certainly felt like it was developed during the civil war...
  - iso947 7y ago
    They had a postal service which was censored, and used codes to communicate
dntbnmpls 7y ago
> We have yet to see how the US reacts when a massive section of it wants to secede. Shutdown hundreds of critical newspapers. Suspended habeus corpus. And war. https://wiki.lincolntelegrams.com/index.php?title=Lincoln_and_Press_Supression https://wiki.lincolntelegrams.com/index.php?title=Lincoln_an... Not to mention an unrealistic threat of secession led to the deportation of up to 2 million mexican americans. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexican_Repatriation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexican_Repatriation Which was tied to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zimmermann_Telegram https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zimmermann_Telegram and accelerated due to the Great Depression. Of course the fear that japanese americans may try to secede and align with japan got them put in concentration camps. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internment_of_Japanese_Americans https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internment_of_Japanese_America... > India and China both face a significantly more difficult geopolitical reality than the USA. Both of them face separatism funded by foreign nations which adds an extra level of concern. > but to act as though a USA like policy would work in countries with very different ground realities is being willfully arrogant. If you think this is ignorant, go look up US views on free trade and protectionism. In the media, you'll see everyone say the US has always been pro-free trade. History shows otherwise. President Abraham Lincoln declared, "Give us a protective tariff and we will have the greatest nation on earth." Lincoln warned that "the abandonment of the protective policy by the American Government ... must produce want and ruin among our people." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protectionism_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protectionism_in_the_United_St... Almost all the commonly held beliefs we've been brainwashed to accept by the media are simply lies. Democracy? Ask the bolivians, venezuelans, iranians, etc. Freedom? Ask the slaves in libya or the poor slaving away in saudi arabia, kuwait, etc.
- hnews_account_1 7y ago
  Nobody commenting online sitting in their armchairs understands what running a nation looks like. Lincoln met secession threats by declaring them as illegal and terrorist threats and what not if I remember correctly. And he had to do it if he wanted to keep the nation together. We are much more connected now than he was in the 1800s, so the stupid people have enough voice to demand the freedom to make secession speeches. It is an unheard of concept in history and until we kill the idea of a nation state, secession is always a threat to societal fabric. But try to make a rabid liberal "muhhh democracy" crier understand this and they'll retort with nonsensical and false moral equivalents.

by screye 7y ago

reaperducer 7y ago

We have yet to see how the US reacts when a massive section of it wants to secede. We have? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Civil_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Civil_War

gbear605 7y ago
The context was specifically for consumer encryption technologies, which wasn’t an issue during the Civil War.
- loeg 7y ago
  That really is not clear from the statement: "We have yet to see how the US reacts when a massive section of it wants to secede," which is obviously false.
  - sykick 7y ago
    It's not false because we don't know what the reaction would be if this happened today. The reaction of people 160 years ago is not at all predictive of what would happen today. Especially if the issue was not a moral one as it was 160 years ago.
  - scarejunba 7y ago
    Its obvious falseness is usually a hint that there are contextual conversational modifiers that are implicit. Conversationally, if your objective is information exchange, it is usually more productive to ask for clarification than to refute one interpretation.
AsyncAwait 7y ago
During the Internet age, is what OP probably meant.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]

duxup 7y ago

Isn't cutting off communication / or various forms of oppression often part of the path to the death of a few million people? I'm not convinced one is being traded for another... possibly quite the opposite.

product50 7y ago
No - it is not. For most Indians, encryption of messaging/communication is a recent phenomenon popularized by Whatsapp. Millions of people have already died as part of religious, naxal and territorial violence in the past decades. Encryption is not a magical solution to everything.

saagarjha 7y ago

> Such draconian policies should only come into place for very short durations with measures for removal One of the problems when giving a government powers like this for a “short duration” is they tend to end up sticking a lot longer than that.

loeg 7y ago

We had a pretty big experiment with federalism and secession in the 19th century, actually.

freeAgent 7y ago
Yeah, but they didn't have VPNs back then ;)
- scrumbledober 7y ago
  any time i had to use the VPN at my previous job it certainly felt like it was developed during the civil war...
- iso947 7y ago
  They had a postal service which was censored, and used codes to communicate

dntbnmpls 7y ago

> We have yet to see how the US reacts when a massive section of it wants to secede. Shutdown hundreds of critical newspapers. Suspended habeus corpus. And war. https://wiki.lincolntelegrams.com/index.php?title=Lincoln_and_Press_Supression https://wiki.lincolntelegrams.com/index.php?title=Lincoln_an... Not to mention an unrealistic threat of secession led to the deportation of up to 2 million mexican americans. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexican_Repatriation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexican_Repatriation Which was tied to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zimmermann_Telegram https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zimmermann_Telegram and accelerated due to the Great Depression. Of course the fear that japanese americans may try to secede and align with japan got them put in concentration camps. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internment_of_Japanese_Americans https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internment_of_Japanese_America... > India and China both face a significantly more difficult geopolitical reality than the USA. Both of them face separatism funded by foreign nations which adds an extra level of concern. > but to act as though a USA like policy would work in countries with very different ground realities is being willfully arrogant. If you think this is ignorant, go look up US views on free trade and protectionism. In the media, you'll see everyone say the US has always been pro-free trade. History shows otherwise. President Abraham Lincoln declared, "Give us a protective tariff and we will have the greatest nation on earth." Lincoln warned that "the abandonment of the protective policy by the American Government ... must produce want and ruin among our people." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protectionism_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protectionism_in_the_United_St... Almost all the commonly held beliefs we've been brainwashed to accept by the media are simply lies. Democracy? Ask the bolivians, venezuelans, iranians, etc. Freedom? Ask the slaves in libya or the poor slaving away in saudi arabia, kuwait, etc.

hnews_account_1 7y ago
Nobody commenting online sitting in their armchairs understands what running a nation looks like. Lincoln met secession threats by declaring them as illegal and terrorist threats and what not if I remember correctly. And he had to do it if he wanted to keep the nation together. We are much more connected now than he was in the 1800s, so the stupid people have enough voice to demand the freedom to make secession speeches. It is an unheard of concept in history and until we kill the idea of a nation state, secession is always a threat to societal fabric. But try to make a rabid liberal "muhhh democracy" crier understand this and they'll retort with nonsensical and false moral equivalents.