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Okay, pay me the money you were going to spend on snacks and the money you were going to pay the person who you pay to fetch the snacks, and I'll go fetch my ow

Okay, pay me the money you were going to spend on snacks and the money you were going to pay the person who you pay to fetch the snacks, and I'll go fetch my own snacks or order them off the internet to my desk. It's arguable whether it's actually a perk for me to spend 8 hours in a row at my desk, but even if we accept that claim at face value, it's still not a significant factor in any decisions I make. Perks are things you give me that I can't get for myself, like health insurance which you use collective bargaining to get a lower price on. Snacks aren't that. And while it's anecdotal, I've seen people take multiple-thousands-of-dollars pay cuts to work at places with "a better culture" where the only discern-able differences were soda in the fridge, beer on tap, and a ping-pong table or similar: all things that if you put a number value on what it's worth to you, aren't worth it. Culture does matter, but it starts with valuing your workers enough to pay them and not use irrelevant "perks" as an excuse to pay them less.

throwaway894345 7y ago
> Okay, pay me the money you were going to spend on snacks and the money you were going to pay the person who you pay to fetch the snacks, and I'll go fetch my own snacks or order them off the internet to my desk. Your office manager (or whoever) orders snacks from a contractor in bulk once a month (they don't make N GrubHub/etc individual orders every day). If they give you your fraction of that back, it wouldn't cover your GrubHub/etc order. Perks work because of these economies of scale. You can rail against the value of these perks, but "give me the cash and let me decide for myself" doesn't work.
- kerkeslager 7y ago
  Well I'm certainly not ordering from GrubHub either. > Your office manager (or whoever) orders snacks from a contractor in bulk once a month (they don't make N GrubHub/etc individual orders every day). If they give you your fraction of that back, it wouldn't cover your GrubHub/etc order. Perks work because of these economies of scale. What's the economy of scale on me getting up and going to get a fresh salad even when snacks are provided for free, because I value my health and sanity?
  - throwaway894345 7y ago
    If you don’t value it, that’s fine. No one is holding a gun to your head and demanding you eat the snacks, but your original proposition was about using that money to buy your own snacks which doesn’t work for the aforementioned economies of scale.
    - kerkeslager 7y ago
      Really, you think buying my own snacks doesn't work? I gotta tell you, I've been accused of many things, but being unable to buy snacks is not one of them. Sure, maybe it costs me some minuscule amount of money: if that's your point you can have it. Congrats! You win that argument. My argument is: pretending that snacks are a meaningful benefit in negotiating employment is a huge loss to employees. But if you want to choose your job based on the snack benefit, have fun working for reduced wages so you can sit at your desk more.
      - throwaway894345 7y ago
        I think you replied to the wrong person? I didn’t make any such accusation...
        deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
        kerkeslager 7y ago
        You said: > If you don’t value it, that’s fine. No one is holding a gun to your head and demanding you eat the snacks, but your original proposition was about using that money to buy your own snacks which doesn’t work for the aforementioned economies of scale. And before that, you said: > You can rail against the value of these perks, but "give me the cash and let me decide for myself" doesn't work. Buying my own snacks works just fine, because in an economy of scale, snacks simply are irrelevant. The greatest relevance they have is as a contract negotiation chip where employers try to sell them as a benefit which gets weighed against things that actually matter, like salary. If you view snacks as an inherently important thing, I guess I can't argue with you on that, but I think most people wouldn't agree with you if they realized how much money they might be leaving behind by considering things like snacks when choosing a job.
- TimTheTinker 7y ago
  Also, even if they were to give you your fraction of that back, that would count as taxable income - unless they categorize it as a "stipend" -- which requires a lot more up-front accounting/legal work on their end. You may prefer getting $6/wk (or $5.04/wk after taxes) more instead of snacks at work, but the simple fact is that your employer provides snacks because it's in their best interest to do so. Whether it's in your interest is not the decisive factor, though they may take your opinion into consideration.
- paulie_a 7y ago
  I've never seen an office manager order from anything but GrubHub and instacart on a fairly regular basis with plenty of employee input. You seem to be referring to large faceless corporations that are ordering in bulk that way.
  - throwaway894345 7y ago
    I'm not referring to large, faceless corporations, I'm referring to >100 person orgs. My experience can't be an outlier as there are plenty of vendors that specialize in this space, so someone out there is buying from a vendor. Here's what I found on the first page of search results: - http://dockspace.co/ http://dockspace.co/ - https://snacknation.com/ https://snacknation.com/ - https://naturebox.com/office https://naturebox.com/office - https://www.eatclub.com/ https://www.eatclub.com/ - https://www.workperks.co/ https://www.workperks.co/ - https://fruitguys.com/office-fruit-delivery https://fruitguys.com/office-fruit-delivery - https://www.bevi.co https://www.bevi.co
- maest 7y ago
  I feel like this conversation got massively side-tracked. Are you arguing in good faith that the amount of value some snacks provide to an employee is meaningful when compared to the other things the GP mentioned?
  - throwaway894345 7y ago
    No, I was responding to the specific argument made by the OP which I quoted above.
    - kerkeslager 7y ago
      What you quoted was more of a statement of what I want than an argument for why I want it. You didn't quote my argument.
- ChrisAnders0n 7y ago
  This entire thread is the reason unions are such a pain in the a$$. You have a bunch of employees who have never run a company confidently telling with their handwaving math how things should work. You have a dozen people patting themselves and others on the back for the idea of getting a sliver of their snack budget back in salary with no concept of economies of scale. While unionizing for backbreaking work like the manufacturing industry makes sense, in tech it is a nightmare. Let's see where Kickstarter finds itself in the next recession and see how things work out when executives can no longer make quick decisions but are forced to do everything by committee.
  - zaccus 7y ago
    This seems to be hard for some folks to understand. Allow me to simplify. Fuck snacks. I do not care about snacks. Take them away. I won't complain.
octodog 7y ago
Who are you to decide if that's worth it or not? Obviously if someone has decided to take that pay cut and switch companies it was worthwhile for them. You might not care much for those perks yourself but it's self-evident that some people do.
- kerkeslager 7y ago
  People are free to make whatever irrational decisions they wish. Again, we're talking anecdotal evidence, but those people don't stay long at those companies. I certainly won't hold it against an employer if they provide snacks.
  - senordevnyc 7y ago
    It’s not irrational to value things differently. I place a huge premium on having a variety of drinks, snacks, and meals at my workplace. Far, far beyond the mere cost to purchase them. I make plenty of money, why would I add a huge time sink, hassle, and mental overhead for a bit of extra cash that I don’t really need?
    - kerkeslager 7y ago
      Do you know how much of a time sink, hassle, and mental overhead it is to work for $5000 you didn't make because you accepted $500 in snacks instead? If not, I can point you to a few devs who can tell you from their experiences. ;)
      - ChrisAnders0n 7y ago
        However, this problem isn't solved by unions, it's solved by teaching your dev friends how to negotiate better. If they are on their 3rd job and are still getting under negotiated with snacks then I don't know what to tell you (or them).
      - senordevnyc 7y ago
        I’ve been doing this for a long time, thanks. It’s definitely worth a few thousand dollars per year to me. That’s less than 1% of my income. Just because it’s not worth it for you means little.

throwaway894345 7y ago

> Okay, pay me the money you were going to spend on snacks and the money you were going to pay the person who you pay to fetch the snacks, and I'll go fetch my own snacks or order them off the internet to my desk. Your office manager (or whoever) orders snacks from a contractor in bulk once a month (they don't make N GrubHub/etc individual orders every day). If they give you your fraction of that back, it wouldn't cover your GrubHub/etc order. Perks work because of these economies of scale. You can rail against the value of these perks, but "give me the cash and let me decide for myself" doesn't work.

kerkeslager 7y ago
Well I'm certainly not ordering from GrubHub either. > Your office manager (or whoever) orders snacks from a contractor in bulk once a month (they don't make N GrubHub/etc individual orders every day). If they give you your fraction of that back, it wouldn't cover your GrubHub/etc order. Perks work because of these economies of scale. What's the economy of scale on me getting up and going to get a fresh salad even when snacks are provided for free, because I value my health and sanity?
- throwaway894345 7y ago
  If you don’t value it, that’s fine. No one is holding a gun to your head and demanding you eat the snacks, but your original proposition was about using that money to buy your own snacks which doesn’t work for the aforementioned economies of scale.
  - kerkeslager 7y ago
    Really, you think buying my own snacks doesn't work? I gotta tell you, I've been accused of many things, but being unable to buy snacks is not one of them. Sure, maybe it costs me some minuscule amount of money: if that's your point you can have it. Congrats! You win that argument. My argument is: pretending that snacks are a meaningful benefit in negotiating employment is a huge loss to employees. But if you want to choose your job based on the snack benefit, have fun working for reduced wages so you can sit at your desk more.
    - throwaway894345 7y ago
      I think you replied to the wrong person? I didn’t make any such accusation...
      - deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
      - kerkeslager 7y ago
        You said: > If you don’t value it, that’s fine. No one is holding a gun to your head and demanding you eat the snacks, but your original proposition was about using that money to buy your own snacks which doesn’t work for the aforementioned economies of scale. And before that, you said: > You can rail against the value of these perks, but "give me the cash and let me decide for myself" doesn't work. Buying my own snacks works just fine, because in an economy of scale, snacks simply are irrelevant. The greatest relevance they have is as a contract negotiation chip where employers try to sell them as a benefit which gets weighed against things that actually matter, like salary. If you view snacks as an inherently important thing, I guess I can't argue with you on that, but I think most people wouldn't agree with you if they realized how much money they might be leaving behind by considering things like snacks when choosing a job.
TimTheTinker 7y ago
Also, even if they were to give you your fraction of that back, that would count as taxable income - unless they categorize it as a "stipend" -- which requires a lot more up-front accounting/legal work on their end. You may prefer getting $6/wk (or $5.04/wk after taxes) more instead of snacks at work, but the simple fact is that your employer provides snacks because it's in their best interest to do so. Whether it's in your interest is not the decisive factor, though they may take your opinion into consideration.
paulie_a 7y ago
I've never seen an office manager order from anything but GrubHub and instacart on a fairly regular basis with plenty of employee input. You seem to be referring to large faceless corporations that are ordering in bulk that way.
- throwaway894345 7y ago
  I'm not referring to large, faceless corporations, I'm referring to >100 person orgs. My experience can't be an outlier as there are plenty of vendors that specialize in this space, so someone out there is buying from a vendor. Here's what I found on the first page of search results: - http://dockspace.co/ http://dockspace.co/ - https://snacknation.com/ https://snacknation.com/ - https://naturebox.com/office https://naturebox.com/office - https://www.eatclub.com/ https://www.eatclub.com/ - https://www.workperks.co/ https://www.workperks.co/ - https://fruitguys.com/office-fruit-delivery https://fruitguys.com/office-fruit-delivery - https://www.bevi.co https://www.bevi.co
maest 7y ago
I feel like this conversation got massively side-tracked. Are you arguing in good faith that the amount of value some snacks provide to an employee is meaningful when compared to the other things the GP mentioned?
- throwaway894345 7y ago
  No, I was responding to the specific argument made by the OP which I quoted above.
  - kerkeslager 7y ago
    What you quoted was more of a statement of what I want than an argument for why I want it. You didn't quote my argument.
ChrisAnders0n 7y ago
This entire thread is the reason unions are such a pain in the a$$. You have a bunch of employees who have never run a company confidently telling with their handwaving math how things should work. You have a dozen people patting themselves and others on the back for the idea of getting a sliver of their snack budget back in salary with no concept of economies of scale. While unionizing for backbreaking work like the manufacturing industry makes sense, in tech it is a nightmare. Let's see where Kickstarter finds itself in the next recession and see how things work out when executives can no longer make quick decisions but are forced to do everything by committee.
- zaccus 7y ago
  This seems to be hard for some folks to understand. Allow me to simplify. Fuck snacks. I do not care about snacks. Take them away. I won't complain.

octodog 7y ago

Who are you to decide if that's worth it or not? Obviously if someone has decided to take that pay cut and switch companies it was worthwhile for them. You might not care much for those perks yourself but it's self-evident that some people do.

kerkeslager 7y ago
People are free to make whatever irrational decisions they wish. Again, we're talking anecdotal evidence, but those people don't stay long at those companies. I certainly won't hold it against an employer if they provide snacks.
- senordevnyc 7y ago
  It’s not irrational to value things differently. I place a huge premium on having a variety of drinks, snacks, and meals at my workplace. Far, far beyond the mere cost to purchase them. I make plenty of money, why would I add a huge time sink, hassle, and mental overhead for a bit of extra cash that I don’t really need?
  - kerkeslager 7y ago
    Do you know how much of a time sink, hassle, and mental overhead it is to work for $5000 you didn't make because you accepted $500 in snacks instead? If not, I can point you to a few devs who can tell you from their experiences. ;)
    - ChrisAnders0n 7y ago
      However, this problem isn't solved by unions, it's solved by teaching your dev friends how to negotiate better. If they are on their 3rd job and are still getting under negotiated with snacks then I don't know what to tell you (or them).
    - senordevnyc 7y ago
      I’ve been doing this for a long time, thanks. It’s definitely worth a few thousand dollars per year to me. That’s less than 1% of my income. Just because it’s not worth it for you means little.