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I disagree. Professional sports leagues are both monopolies and monopsonies (meaning they’re the only ones hiring those specialized athletes). So the market dyn

I disagree. Professional sports leagues are both monopolies and monopsonies (meaning they’re the only ones hiring those specialized athletes). So the market dynamics are very different from that of tech. If you’re a NFL linebacker, you don’t really have an option to switch leagues if you’re unhappy with how it’s run. If you’re a software engineer, you can switch companies very easily.

swang 7y ago
what if apple, google, intel, adobe, pixar, lucasfilms all conspire to suppress your wages? great you can switch to another company that doesn't pay you your worth. https://www.latimes.com/business/technology/la-fi-tn-tech-jobs-settlement-20150903-story.html https://www.latimes.com/business/technology/la-fi-tn-tech-jo...
- baron816 7y ago
  It’s already illegal for them to do that. The solution to collusion by firms is not collusion by workers.
  - 8note 7y ago
    what's the worst thing that happens to a big business by breaking the law? paying a small fine?
elicash 7y ago
I brought up professional sports unions in the context of having a highly competitive group of workers who make large salaries, and that a union can still be useful in that environment as far as negotiations. That professional sports are monopolies and monopsonies isn't particularly relevant to this point. The fact that tech workers can find a job elsewhere is even more motiviation to unionize because you have even more bargaining power and there are smaller risks.
- baron816 7y ago
  > That professional sports are monopolies and monopsonies isn't particularly relevant to this point. What are you talking about. That’s entirely relevant. What’s not relevant is that the workers are rich. Market dynamics are the entirety of what determines your compensation and working conditions. Being able to leave for a competitor is pretty all the leverage you’re ever going to have.
  - elicash 7y ago
    If that was true, Kickstarter wouldn't have fought it as hard as they did. The workers just gained additional leverage. What's the evidence that these workers have zero additional leverage?
    - baron816 7y ago
      There’s no evidence that they do have additional leverage either. I could argue that they acted against their own self interest in many ways, but still don’t know for sure how things will work out in one way or another.
      - elicash 7y ago
        There's absolutely evidence that unions increase wages. 100%. I suppose you could argue that's happening out of employer generosity? And that they're more generous when there's a union?
        aianus 7y ago
        > There's absolutely evidence that unions increase wages. 100%. Does that hold for unprofitable VC-subsidized companies? They might go bankrupt if VCs are turned off by a unionized workforce in the next round.
        baron816 7y ago
        Yes there is evidence that unions increase wages. But none for this specific case.
slg 7y ago
If this was the only reason to have a union, you would only expect unions to exist in sports leagues that have a monopoly. Yet that isn't what we see in practice. The WNBA and the MLS both have unions. The NBA G League is moving to form a union as we speak. These are all leagues that face stiff competition from abroad and it is common for American athletes to go play in those foreign leagues. However that competition between employers isn't enough to give the athletes the negotiating power that they can command with a union.
heavyset_go 7y ago
Then look at movie stars instead of athletes if you feel the analogy isn't apt. They're all card carrying members of SAG-AFTRA.

swang 7y ago

what if apple, google, intel, adobe, pixar, lucasfilms all conspire to suppress your wages? great you can switch to another company that doesn't pay you your worth. https://www.latimes.com/business/technology/la-fi-tn-tech-jobs-settlement-20150903-story.html https://www.latimes.com/business/technology/la-fi-tn-tech-jo...

baron816 7y ago
It’s already illegal for them to do that. The solution to collusion by firms is not collusion by workers.
- 8note 7y ago
  what's the worst thing that happens to a big business by breaking the law? paying a small fine?

elicash 7y ago

I brought up professional sports unions in the context of having a highly competitive group of workers who make large salaries, and that a union can still be useful in that environment as far as negotiations. That professional sports are monopolies and monopsonies isn't particularly relevant to this point. The fact that tech workers can find a job elsewhere is even more motiviation to unionize because you have even more bargaining power and there are smaller risks.

baron816 7y ago
> That professional sports are monopolies and monopsonies isn't particularly relevant to this point. What are you talking about. That’s entirely relevant. What’s not relevant is that the workers are rich. Market dynamics are the entirety of what determines your compensation and working conditions. Being able to leave for a competitor is pretty all the leverage you’re ever going to have.
- elicash 7y ago
  If that was true, Kickstarter wouldn't have fought it as hard as they did. The workers just gained additional leverage. What's the evidence that these workers have zero additional leverage?
  - baron816 7y ago
    There’s no evidence that they do have additional leverage either. I could argue that they acted against their own self interest in many ways, but still don’t know for sure how things will work out in one way or another.
    - elicash 7y ago
      There's absolutely evidence that unions increase wages. 100%. I suppose you could argue that's happening out of employer generosity? And that they're more generous when there's a union?
      - aianus 7y ago
        > There's absolutely evidence that unions increase wages. 100%. Does that hold for unprofitable VC-subsidized companies? They might go bankrupt if VCs are turned off by a unionized workforce in the next round.
      - baron816 7y ago
        Yes there is evidence that unions increase wages. But none for this specific case.

slg 7y ago

If this was the only reason to have a union, you would only expect unions to exist in sports leagues that have a monopoly. Yet that isn't what we see in practice. The WNBA and the MLS both have unions. The NBA G League is moving to form a union as we speak. These are all leagues that face stiff competition from abroad and it is common for American athletes to go play in those foreign leagues. However that competition between employers isn't enough to give the athletes the negotiating power that they can command with a union.

heavyset_go 7y ago

Then look at movie stars instead of athletes if you feel the analogy isn't apt. They're all card carrying members of SAG-AFTRA.