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Leverage. Without a union, you can ask management for stuff, but they can just say no. Your only recourse then is to quit, which wouldn't change anything when

Leverage. Without a union, you can ask management for stuff, but they can just say no. Your only recourse then is to quit, which wouldn't change anything when it's just one person. With a union, a work stoppage is a possibility. Suddenly management have a reason to come to the negotiation table and make concessions.

chrisco255 7y ago
First of all "asking for stuff" implies a negotiation between two parties. A negotiation implies that either party can walk away from a deal. You're implying management shouldn't be able to say no. Management is not necessarily out to get employees and excessive compensation or regulation around hiring and firing leads to either insolvency or stagnation. It's a balancing act. A union can be just as exploitative as a company can. It's not all sunshine and rainbows. The software industry has been regulated by demand over the last few decades. Demand is still extremely high for software devs. Managers know that employees can make moves because unemployment in our sector is something like 2%. I've worked in many industries in my life and I've never been chased down or marketed to move jobs as much as I have in software development.
- mdszy 7y ago
  And the company can walk away too, they just don't get to take the workers with them. A corporation is not entitled to anyone's labor.
  - chrisco255 7y ago
    Neither is a union entitled to my labor. I would purposely avoid unions to maintain my agency as an individual and to work at more agile and flexible institutions.
    - mdszy 7y ago
      The union isn't benefiting from your labor, this makes no sense.
      - aianus 7y ago
        Of course it is, union dues are literally a percentage of your salary.
        mdszy 7y ago
        That's absolutely not equivalent. labor != money If the union benefited from your LABOR then there would be no incentive for unions to strike.
- ryanwhitney 7y ago
  Pretty sure they were just phrasing it casually… Of course there are negotiations involved. Having workers be organized provides a better ability to ask for (and negotiate) things by banding together. As well as protections. Without, sticking your neck out—alone or in a small non-unionized group—can be a major risk. High demand does not mean workers are not exploited (hi amazon), and employees organizing can provide protections and benefits for all staff, some of which may not be in the same “high demand” group.
- WarChortle 7y ago
  A negotiation is also done in good faith with both parties willing to listen and discuss options. An individual almost never has the advantage when negotiating with a company. For 99% of employees out their quitting isn't the threat you make it seem to be. As easy you make it sound to get a new job, its that easy for them to replace you. Then that new employee gets to deal with the same shit you left over. It never gets fixed. Leaving and going somewhere new doesn't solve anything. for most people job hunting is just looking at piles of shit and finding which one stinks less. Insurance at my current job is not great. I can't go to my boss and say I want better health insurance he would laugh me out of his office, but even if he could, why would he not just give me the better insurance from the start? If a Union went to management and said we demand better health care that carries weight. That would get something done.
  - chrisco255 7y ago
    Yes they do, when you are in a high demand industry with low supply of skilled workers, you are in the driver's seat of a negotiation. You have options. You're the one being bid on by multiple employers. You absolutely have the leverage there. This is similar to the real estate market, by the way. There are so-called "buyers markets" and "seller markets" where one trend or another is dominant at any given time depending on if there are more buyers than sellers or more sellers than buyers. It's not easy to replace tech employees at all. Even if there was an abundant supply of expert software engineers (there's not), it takes many months to ramp up on a new code base to optimal productivity and to learn the organization and domain requirements of a software product. That will never change. An average tech company will spend tens of thousands of dollars to fill a position, not even counting initial salary and bonuses. Leaving for somewhere better often does solve quite a bit. On my last job move my pay increased by 50%. If I had stayed at my previous company I'd be skating by with 4% raises. On the whole the aggregate effect of employees moving around in a dynamic market creates the cush benefits and pay we see in this industry. The reason they wouldn't give you specifically better insurance is because they have to negotiate a plan for everyone in the company. What is that costing them on paper? I don't know how many employees your company has or what their margins are or any details really, but it can be as much as $700-$1000 a month per employee for health insurance. If you've got 100 employees that's $100K a year. No boss should "laugh you out of the office" for requesting that. But really, its an HR and Corporate leadership issue so you should take your grievances to those with the power to make the change and not your boss (unless you work directly for the CEO).

chrisco255 7y ago

First of all "asking for stuff" implies a negotiation between two parties. A negotiation implies that either party can walk away from a deal. You're implying management shouldn't be able to say no. Management is not necessarily out to get employees and excessive compensation or regulation around hiring and firing leads to either insolvency or stagnation. It's a balancing act. A union can be just as exploitative as a company can. It's not all sunshine and rainbows. The software industry has been regulated by demand over the last few decades. Demand is still extremely high for software devs. Managers know that employees can make moves because unemployment in our sector is something like 2%. I've worked in many industries in my life and I've never been chased down or marketed to move jobs as much as I have in software development.

mdszy 7y ago
And the company can walk away too, they just don't get to take the workers with them. A corporation is not entitled to anyone's labor.
- chrisco255 7y ago
  Neither is a union entitled to my labor. I would purposely avoid unions to maintain my agency as an individual and to work at more agile and flexible institutions.
  - mdszy 7y ago
    The union isn't benefiting from your labor, this makes no sense.
    - aianus 7y ago
      Of course it is, union dues are literally a percentage of your salary.
      - mdszy 7y ago
        That's absolutely not equivalent. labor != money If the union benefited from your LABOR then there would be no incentive for unions to strike.
ryanwhitney 7y ago
Pretty sure they were just phrasing it casually… Of course there are negotiations involved. Having workers be organized provides a better ability to ask for (and negotiate) things by banding together. As well as protections. Without, sticking your neck out—alone or in a small non-unionized group—can be a major risk. High demand does not mean workers are not exploited (hi amazon), and employees organizing can provide protections and benefits for all staff, some of which may not be in the same “high demand” group.
WarChortle 7y ago
A negotiation is also done in good faith with both parties willing to listen and discuss options. An individual almost never has the advantage when negotiating with a company. For 99% of employees out their quitting isn't the threat you make it seem to be. As easy you make it sound to get a new job, its that easy for them to replace you. Then that new employee gets to deal with the same shit you left over. It never gets fixed. Leaving and going somewhere new doesn't solve anything. for most people job hunting is just looking at piles of shit and finding which one stinks less. Insurance at my current job is not great. I can't go to my boss and say I want better health insurance he would laugh me out of his office, but even if he could, why would he not just give me the better insurance from the start? If a Union went to management and said we demand better health care that carries weight. That would get something done.
- chrisco255 7y ago
  Yes they do, when you are in a high demand industry with low supply of skilled workers, you are in the driver's seat of a negotiation. You have options. You're the one being bid on by multiple employers. You absolutely have the leverage there. This is similar to the real estate market, by the way. There are so-called "buyers markets" and "seller markets" where one trend or another is dominant at any given time depending on if there are more buyers than sellers or more sellers than buyers. It's not easy to replace tech employees at all. Even if there was an abundant supply of expert software engineers (there's not), it takes many months to ramp up on a new code base to optimal productivity and to learn the organization and domain requirements of a software product. That will never change. An average tech company will spend tens of thousands of dollars to fill a position, not even counting initial salary and bonuses. Leaving for somewhere better often does solve quite a bit. On my last job move my pay increased by 50%. If I had stayed at my previous company I'd be skating by with 4% raises. On the whole the aggregate effect of employees moving around in a dynamic market creates the cush benefits and pay we see in this industry. The reason they wouldn't give you specifically better insurance is because they have to negotiate a plan for everyone in the company. What is that costing them on paper? I don't know how many employees your company has or what their margins are or any details really, but it can be as much as $700-$1000 a month per employee for health insurance. If you've got 100 employees that's $100K a year. No boss should "laugh you out of the office" for requesting that. But really, its an HR and Corporate leadership issue so you should take your grievances to those with the power to make the change and not your boss (unless you work directly for the CEO).