4 ms·

Opinions aside, you have to see the writing is on the wall.

codingmess 7y ago
Which is? People crave Socialism?
commandlinefan 7y ago
However you feel about unions (and I personally have many reservations), if tech workers unionize, management will have nobody to blame but themselves. They've had decades to listen to us, and they've responded with open offices, JIRA (or the equivalent) ticket quotas, unpaid overtime, whiteboard coding interviews and zero training. We're well paid but besides that, I'd be hard-pressed to think of a way we could collectively be treated with any more contempt than we already are.
- codingmess 7y ago
  You can always start your own company if you are unhappy about other companies' conduct.
  - erik998 7y ago
    Yes you can be part of a union and create your own loan out company. https://www.wrapbook.com/how-to-set-up-a-loan-out-company/ https://www.wrapbook.com/how-to-set-up-a-loan-out-company/
    - codingmess 7y ago
      For example.
- rolltiide 7y ago
  > We're well paid but besides that, I'd be hard-pressed to think of a way we could collectively be treated with any more contempt than we already are. Relative to other wage workers yes, but nowhere close to the ratios between wage and housing last seen 30 years ago. There are opportunities to negotiate for that sort of compensation again. As long as annual compensation doesn't let you own a house outright in 5 years in the same area as your place of work, then there is more work to do. Comparing yourself to other trades is not relevant. Wage growth in one not-so-rare trade will benefit many more trades and people. Most of us would not be where we are today if we limited our aspirations to what other people do.
  - codingmess 7y ago
    As if companies determine the price for housing. With Sillicon Valley wages, you could easily afford housing within 5 years somewhere else. It is not companies' fault that housing prices have gone up - it is politics preventing building of available housing. It is also an example that shows that no matter how much you pay the employees, housing prices will simply adapt if more housing is not being built.
    - Apocryphon 7y ago
      The companies are at least partly culpable for choosing to aggregate themselves in these insanely high CoL areas, contributing to the rent jumps, and failing to engage in the proper corporate social responsibility of working with their ambient communities to alleviate these living situations for both their employees and their neighbors.
      - codingmess 7y ago
        Well the people living there can vote, can't they? I don't see how it is corporate responsibility. Corporations can't vote. Yes, the corporations are contributing to rent jumps, but that was part of the point: by paying higher salaries, as is being demanded by the pro union crowd here, they also increase the rents. So they can't simply pay enough so that "people can buy a house within 5 years", because housing prices rise along with salaries.
        Apocryphon 7y ago
        The union crowd isn't unilaterally asking for higher salaries. Hell, the Kickstarter employees in the OP aren't even focused specifically on compensation. There are issues at stake such as toxic environments, anti-age/race/gender discrimination, open offices, etc. Even on matters of comp it needn't simply be "give raises to all the engineers", as pro-tech unionization efforts tend to also support non-technical workers such as the custodial and cafeteria staff, who would be in higher need of pay raises. The pay for engineers is usually more directed towards addressing unpaid overtime, which is more of a work-life balance/anti-death march measure more than a monetary one anyway. Corporations can't vote, but they do have free speech when it comes to political expression, and tech companies already do plenty of lobbying. Perhaps they could have spent some fraction of those efforts on influencing the housing shortages in the places they set up camp in. Being a good, responsible neighbor should be part of CSR.
- michaelt 7y ago
  > I'd be hard-pressed to think of a way we could collectively be treated with any more contempt than we already are. I'm guessing you've never worked a job in the retail, warehouse or food service industries :)

Which is? People crave Socialism?

However you feel about unions (and I personally have many reservations), if tech workers unionize, management will have nobody to blame but themselves. They've had decades to listen to us, and they've responded with open offices, JIRA (or the equivalent) ticket quotas, unpaid overtime, whiteboard coding interviews and zero training. We're well paid but besides that, I'd be hard-pressed to think of a way we could collectively be treated with any more contempt than we already are.

codingmess 7y ago
You can always start your own company if you are unhappy about other companies' conduct.
- erik998 7y ago
  Yes you can be part of a union and create your own loan out company. https://www.wrapbook.com/how-to-set-up-a-loan-out-company/ https://www.wrapbook.com/how-to-set-up-a-loan-out-company/
  - codingmess 7y ago
    For example.
rolltiide 7y ago
> We're well paid but besides that, I'd be hard-pressed to think of a way we could collectively be treated with any more contempt than we already are. Relative to other wage workers yes, but nowhere close to the ratios between wage and housing last seen 30 years ago. There are opportunities to negotiate for that sort of compensation again. As long as annual compensation doesn't let you own a house outright in 5 years in the same area as your place of work, then there is more work to do. Comparing yourself to other trades is not relevant. Wage growth in one not-so-rare trade will benefit many more trades and people. Most of us would not be where we are today if we limited our aspirations to what other people do.
- codingmess 7y ago
  As if companies determine the price for housing. With Sillicon Valley wages, you could easily afford housing within 5 years somewhere else. It is not companies' fault that housing prices have gone up - it is politics preventing building of available housing. It is also an example that shows that no matter how much you pay the employees, housing prices will simply adapt if more housing is not being built.
  - Apocryphon 7y ago
    The companies are at least partly culpable for choosing to aggregate themselves in these insanely high CoL areas, contributing to the rent jumps, and failing to engage in the proper corporate social responsibility of working with their ambient communities to alleviate these living situations for both their employees and their neighbors.
    - codingmess 7y ago
      Well the people living there can vote, can't they? I don't see how it is corporate responsibility. Corporations can't vote. Yes, the corporations are contributing to rent jumps, but that was part of the point: by paying higher salaries, as is being demanded by the pro union crowd here, they also increase the rents. So they can't simply pay enough so that "people can buy a house within 5 years", because housing prices rise along with salaries.
      - Apocryphon 7y ago
        The union crowd isn't unilaterally asking for higher salaries. Hell, the Kickstarter employees in the OP aren't even focused specifically on compensation. There are issues at stake such as toxic environments, anti-age/race/gender discrimination, open offices, etc. Even on matters of comp it needn't simply be "give raises to all the engineers", as pro-tech unionization efforts tend to also support non-technical workers such as the custodial and cafeteria staff, who would be in higher need of pay raises. The pay for engineers is usually more directed towards addressing unpaid overtime, which is more of a work-life balance/anti-death march measure more than a monetary one anyway. Corporations can't vote, but they do have free speech when it comes to political expression, and tech companies already do plenty of lobbying. Perhaps they could have spent some fraction of those efforts on influencing the housing shortages in the places they set up camp in. Being a good, responsible neighbor should be part of CSR.
michaelt 7y ago
> I'd be hard-pressed to think of a way we could collectively be treated with any more contempt than we already are. I'm guessing you've never worked a job in the retail, warehouse or food service industries :)