5 ms·

It was done to deceive ARIN which is why it is being considered wire fraud.

smnrchrds 7y ago
So if I sign up for a service with different email addresses to use the 2-week free trial over and over, I will be guilty of wire fraud?
- dlgeek 7y ago
  Yes, and they'd probably throw a CFAA violation in there too.
  - smnrchrds 7y ago
    Wow! I shouldn't be surprised, yet I am, that three felonies a day was right.
- jfim 7y ago
  Yes. For example, someone signed up for 58,000 accounts and used them to receive micro deposits (those small sums that are deposited into an account to validate that two accounts are linked correctly). They had their time in court: https://www.wired.com/2008/05/man-allegedly-b/ https://www.wired.com/2008/05/man-allegedly-b/
- zbentley 7y ago
  Intent matters. Scale of abuse matters qualitatively. The legal system does not operate like a computer program.
- 3xblah 7y ago
  s/will be guilty of/could be charged with/
swarnie_ 7y ago
This seems like a bit of an over reach no? I've looked up wire fraud in the US and it seems to come with some properly serious penalties: Whoever, having devised or intending to devise any scheme or artifice to defraud, or for obtaining money or property by means of false or fraudulent pretenses, representations, or promises, transmits or causes to be transmitted by means of wire, radio, or television communication in interstate or foreign commerce, any writings, signs, signals, pictures, or sounds for the purpose of executing such scheme or artifice, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 20 years, or both. If the violation affects a financial institution, such person shall be fined not more than $1,000,000 or imprisoned not more than 30 years, or both.[4]
- tptacek 7y ago
  No? The use of deception to obtain something of value that would not otherwise be given to you is the literal, legal definition of fraud?
  - Mirioron 7y ago
    So, where does that leave advertising? The entire purpose of advertising is to get somebody to spend money on a product they otherwise wouldn't have.
    - tptacek 7y ago
      To be more precise, the elements of fraud include a false statement, made knowingly, upon which someone else reasonably relies, to their detriment. To prosecute, this pattern must not be merely plausibly true but persuasively true in the face of a motivated, skilled defense. That set of circumstances is only rarely true in advertising. It is clearly true here.
    - catalogia 7y ago
      The advertising industry is hated by many people for exactly the parallels you've perceived.
    - empath75 7y ago
      People get sued for false advertising al the time. I feel like people on hacker news are continuously surprised to discover that laws exist and are enforced.
      - paulie_a 7y ago
        And when they are enforced they seem to think that laws can be hacked with cutesy little games to a judge.
    - skywhopper 7y ago
      “The use of deception” is key, and it’s true that advertising often crosses the line, and should be prosecuted more often.
cat199 7y ago
if shell companies are fraud, much of the economy is in trouble
- jacquesm 7y ago
  Shell companies are not normally used for structuring. That's a different matter entirely. A shell company is usually a holding company, not a company created in order to deceive or to bypass a hard cap on some scarce resource.
  - blitmap 7y ago
    Just FYI for others: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Structuring https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Structuring I didn't know there was a formal term for this. Splitting up money transfers to avoid detection of large sums moving around.
    - pjmorris 7y ago
      Sounds like packet switching.
      - jacquesm 7y ago
        No, more like packet fragmentation and reassembly.
  - Animats 7y ago
    Well, there are the fake registrars, such as DropCatch 345, DropCatch 346, DropCatch 347, ... DropCatch 1545. Those are all ICANN-accredited registrars.[1] ICANN parcels out dropped domains among all the registrars who want them at random. Having a thousand dummy registrars improves the odds. That's definitely "structuring" to hog Internet assets. This is possible only because, while ICANN charges each registry when they acquire a domain, ICANN refunds that if they give the domain back within some time period. [1] https://www.icann.org/registrar-reports/accreditation-qualified-list.html https://www.icann.org/registrar-reports/accreditation-qualif...

So if I sign up for a service with different email addresses to use the 2-week free trial over and over, I will be guilty of wire fraud?

dlgeek 7y ago
Yes, and they'd probably throw a CFAA violation in there too.
- smnrchrds 7y ago
  Wow! I shouldn't be surprised, yet I am, that three felonies a day was right.
jfim 7y ago
Yes. For example, someone signed up for 58,000 accounts and used them to receive micro deposits (those small sums that are deposited into an account to validate that two accounts are linked correctly). They had their time in court: https://www.wired.com/2008/05/man-allegedly-b/ https://www.wired.com/2008/05/man-allegedly-b/
zbentley 7y ago
Intent matters. Scale of abuse matters qualitatively. The legal system does not operate like a computer program.
3xblah 7y ago
s/will be guilty of/could be charged with/

swarnie_ 7y ago

This seems like a bit of an over reach no? I've looked up wire fraud in the US and it seems to come with some properly serious penalties: Whoever, having devised or intending to devise any scheme or artifice to defraud, or for obtaining money or property by means of false or fraudulent pretenses, representations, or promises, transmits or causes to be transmitted by means of wire, radio, or television communication in interstate or foreign commerce, any writings, signs, signals, pictures, or sounds for the purpose of executing such scheme or artifice, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 20 years, or both. If the violation affects a financial institution, such person shall be fined not more than $1,000,000 or imprisoned not more than 30 years, or both.[4]

tptacek 7y ago
No? The use of deception to obtain something of value that would not otherwise be given to you is the literal, legal definition of fraud?
- Mirioron 7y ago
  So, where does that leave advertising? The entire purpose of advertising is to get somebody to spend money on a product they otherwise wouldn't have.
  - tptacek 7y ago
    To be more precise, the elements of fraud include a false statement, made knowingly, upon which someone else reasonably relies, to their detriment. To prosecute, this pattern must not be merely plausibly true but persuasively true in the face of a motivated, skilled defense. That set of circumstances is only rarely true in advertising. It is clearly true here.
  - catalogia 7y ago
    The advertising industry is hated by many people for exactly the parallels you've perceived.
  - empath75 7y ago
    People get sued for false advertising al the time. I feel like people on hacker news are continuously surprised to discover that laws exist and are enforced.
    - paulie_a 7y ago
      And when they are enforced they seem to think that laws can be hacked with cutesy little games to a judge.
  - skywhopper 7y ago
    “The use of deception” is key, and it’s true that advertising often crosses the line, and should be prosecuted more often.

cat199 7y ago

if shell companies are fraud, much of the economy is in trouble

jacquesm 7y ago
Shell companies are not normally used for structuring. That's a different matter entirely. A shell company is usually a holding company, not a company created in order to deceive or to bypass a hard cap on some scarce resource.
- blitmap 7y ago
  Just FYI for others: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Structuring https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Structuring I didn't know there was a formal term for this. Splitting up money transfers to avoid detection of large sums moving around.
  - pjmorris 7y ago
    Sounds like packet switching.
    - jacquesm 7y ago
      No, more like packet fragmentation and reassembly.
- Animats 7y ago
  Well, there are the fake registrars, such as DropCatch 345, DropCatch 346, DropCatch 347, ... DropCatch 1545. Those are all ICANN-accredited registrars.[1] ICANN parcels out dropped domains among all the registrars who want them at random. Having a thousand dummy registrars improves the odds. That's definitely "structuring" to hog Internet assets. This is possible only because, while ICANN charges each registry when they acquire a domain, ICANN refunds that if they give the domain back within some time period. [1] https://www.icann.org/registrar-reports/accreditation-qualified-list.html https://www.icann.org/registrar-reports/accreditation-qualif...