4 ms·

Java's Not Dying, It's Mutating

5 points by DanielRibeiro 16y ago

mgkimsal 16y ago
"Unfortunately, people who state that Java's dead are not the people who use the latest Java technologies day in and day out." The 'cutting edge' stuff - scala, groovy, etc. - is used by a comparative handful of people, but is the stuff those people really enjoy using (when I have to do a Java project, I do it in Grails). The predictions of Java's death seem to be based on a Java 1.3-1.4-style Java, and that does seem to be dying. That doesn't really mean that Java itself is dying, although many people did leave the 1.4-style stuff and jumped to other languages altogether (C#, Ruby, etc). This is all anecdotal on my part - just based on people I know and stuff I see. I could say the same thing about PHP (from experience). Many people got frustrated with it 6-7 years ago and jumped ship to Python, Ruby, etc. But 'modern' PHP (while still having much of the stuff people love to hate about PHP) can provide a much stronger base to build on that 7 years ago. Likely the same could be said for 2000-era CF, 2000-era Python, and other camps.
- chris_j 16y ago
  > The predictions of Java's death seem to be based on a Java 1.3-1.4-style Java What do you mean by Java 1.3-1.4-style Java? Do you mean the specific language features used (for example, is everything different now you can use generics and annotations?) or the style of coding? Me, I've been using Java for the past 12 years or so and it, though the language has changed, it still doesn't feel that different.
  - mgkimsal 16y ago
    I should have said 'era'. Most people I knew that were using Java as a day job were stuck on 1.3/1.4 forever, even after 1.5 was released, so could never avail themselves of anything remotely new or interesting in the language. Even something as basic as the new for() looping in 1.5 was something they couldn't or wouldn't adapt to, and most of them left Java for something else.
    - chris_j 16y ago
      Thanks, that makes sense and sounds similar to my experiences: Java 1.5 (I meant Java 5 :-) had been around for an awfully long time before I was able to use it at work. Of course, when we actually were able to move to Java 5, it felt like a bit of an anticlimax. The new for loop and generics and autoboxing and the like are all cool and probably make Java a bit more fun to play around with but hey, I'd been playing with Python and Haskell in my spare time by this point and they're a lot more different and more pleasant to work with. I guess I'm an example of your rule because I only use Java where I have to at work now and I can't think of a personal project that I would use Java for.
astrodust 16y ago
Hurry up and die already.
beagle3 16y ago
"Java" is an overloaded term. "Java the Language" is not dying. I would be happy if it did, but it's going to enjoy COBOLesque longevity, and for mostly the same reasons. "Java the Virtual Machine" is not dying, and I don't care one way or the other -- why do I care if Jython targets JVM vs. CPython that targets its own VM or IronPython that targets .net? If it gets the job done well enough, I'll use it. It isn't really mutating either. "Java the Eco system" is not dying - there's too much invested. It will be years before it dies, if it ever does. It's also not mutating. Seems to me like no part of Java is dying, and only a small part of Java is mutating.

5 points by DanielRibeiro 16y ago

"Unfortunately, people who state that Java's dead are not the people who use the latest Java technologies day in and day out." The 'cutting edge' stuff - scala, groovy, etc. - is used by a comparative handful of people, but is the stuff those people really enjoy using (when I have to do a Java project, I do it in Grails). The predictions of Java's death seem to be based on a Java 1.3-1.4-style Java, and that does seem to be dying. That doesn't really mean that Java itself is dying, although many people did leave the 1.4-style stuff and jumped to other languages altogether (C#, Ruby, etc). This is all anecdotal on my part - just based on people I know and stuff I see. I could say the same thing about PHP (from experience). Many people got frustrated with it 6-7 years ago and jumped ship to Python, Ruby, etc. But 'modern' PHP (while still having much of the stuff people love to hate about PHP) can provide a much stronger base to build on that 7 years ago. Likely the same could be said for 2000-era CF, 2000-era Python, and other camps.

chris_j 16y ago
> The predictions of Java's death seem to be based on a Java 1.3-1.4-style Java What do you mean by Java 1.3-1.4-style Java? Do you mean the specific language features used (for example, is everything different now you can use generics and annotations?) or the style of coding? Me, I've been using Java for the past 12 years or so and it, though the language has changed, it still doesn't feel that different.
- mgkimsal 16y ago
  I should have said 'era'. Most people I knew that were using Java as a day job were stuck on 1.3/1.4 forever, even after 1.5 was released, so could never avail themselves of anything remotely new or interesting in the language. Even something as basic as the new for() looping in 1.5 was something they couldn't or wouldn't adapt to, and most of them left Java for something else.
  - chris_j 16y ago
    Thanks, that makes sense and sounds similar to my experiences: Java 1.5 (I meant Java 5 :-) had been around for an awfully long time before I was able to use it at work. Of course, when we actually were able to move to Java 5, it felt like a bit of an anticlimax. The new for loop and generics and autoboxing and the like are all cool and probably make Java a bit more fun to play around with but hey, I'd been playing with Python and Haskell in my spare time by this point and they're a lot more different and more pleasant to work with. I guess I'm an example of your rule because I only use Java where I have to at work now and I can't think of a personal project that I would use Java for.

astrodust 16y ago

Hurry up and die already.

beagle3 16y ago

"Java" is an overloaded term. "Java the Language" is not dying. I would be happy if it did, but it's going to enjoy COBOLesque longevity, and for mostly the same reasons. "Java the Virtual Machine" is not dying, and I don't care one way or the other -- why do I care if Jython targets JVM vs. CPython that targets its own VM or IronPython that targets .net? If it gets the job done well enough, I'll use it. It isn't really mutating either. "Java the Eco system" is not dying - there's too much invested. It will be years before it dies, if it ever does. It's also not mutating. Seems to me like no part of Java is dying, and only a small part of Java is mutating.