10 ms·

Stop Lying About Our Sons

39 points by Reedx 7y ago

mech1234 7y ago
One thing I've been thinking a lot about lately is the increasing lack of productive physical activity available to men in a lot of settings. Idleness and sedentary lifestyles are increasing in prevalence. Manual labor and sports are both on the decline. Physical activities are good for the body and soul, and it's sad to see them disappearing. I think catharsis is important for men in particular, and idleness is particularly destructive for men. If there aren't engaging activities available for men, they will make something up to stay busy, often in destructive patterns.
throwaway12757 7y ago
I'm not sure, but I might be able to shed some light on this growing up in a "boys" world and then coming out as trans and transitioning to female. I have also spent 6 years in the Navy (on submarines in an all male environment) before I transitioned. Toxic masculinity is a real thing, the amount of men don't cry, men don't show emotion, and the large amount of "locker room" talk involving treating women as sex objects was incredibility high. I've been in these male spaces, not saying anything, but watching and I can truly tell you, it's completely disgusting. In the end, I'm actually sad that most men don't feel like they can talk about their vulnerabilities and emotions. It's a hard world to live in like that.
- forgottenpass 7y ago
  >the amount of men don't cry, men don't show emotion >I'm actually sad that most men don't feel like they can talk about their vulnerabilities and emotions. Do they not talk about it, or have they not talked about it _to you_? I used to believe the narrative that men don't talk about emotional issues, assuming my lifetime of experiences talking to other men about our perspectives, fears, limitations and feelings was some sort of aberration. It finally fell apart when I made some friends in the trades. If _they_ didn't even follow the mold, and were willing to confide in me whenever something was on their mind, then why is this assumed to be a widely-pervasive male trait? As far as I can tell, men are more than willing to talk about personal topics they keep guarded. It just has to be with someone that they care to have a real conversation with.
jacinabox 7y ago
Uh oh social justice starting to get away from you? I can see that,
lxmorj 7y ago
This is silly. Men are humans. Humans are subject to cultural norms. Cultural norms that enable bad behavior in men specifically create things like ‘toxic masculinity’. The problem isn’t the gender of your kids. It’s how you raise them to treat other people. Primarily, women.
- thrwaway69 7y ago
  > Primarily women Do people learn automatically how to be not toxic to men?
- belorn 7y ago
  Its the same with Muslims. Muslims are humans. Humans are subject to cultural norms. Cultural norms that enable bad behavior in Muslims specifically create things like "terrorists". The problem isn't the religion of people. It how they teach them to treat other people. Primarily people of other religions.
olliej 7y ago
This article seems to be interpreting any attack on "toxic" masculinity as an assault on masculinity in general. Things we consider "toxic masculinity" are (for example) * Sexism and misogyny - that is women are less than or inferior to men, and should be focused on serving them. * Violence is a reasonable response to being upset * Men who aren't sufficiently "masculine" (often defined in terms of the above), are also lesser * Women who aren't sufficiently "feminine" need to be put in their place (understand who's in charge, and who they should serve) Are there a few idiots who go beyond that? yes. Just like there are idiots who go bizarrely far on any other topic. But attacking toxic masculinity is not attacking masculinity. It's not attacking men and boys. If you feel attacks on toxic masculinity are attacks on you fathers/husbands/sons maybe there should be some thought about what about their behavior overlaps the above, and whether you think that's ok?
- forgottenpass 7y ago
  >If you feel attacks on toxic masculinity are attacks on you fathers/husbands/sons maybe there should be some thought about what about their behavior overlaps the above, and whether you think that's ok? My favorite part of social commentary these days is how it's layered in "I'm not poorly conveying a point, you're hearing me wrong and/or you're the problem."
- belorn 7y ago
  People who use the term "toxic masculinity" will always be perceived by others as wailed misandry, just as "toxic [target demographic] would get perceived as some form of wailed -ism. Bringing an association between a strongly negative stereotype of an a demographic is an invitation for harm. A litmus test I often use in politics is to switch the target demographic of a negative stereotype with one of the opposite side of the political spectrum. It usually show if a phrase, term or statement is acceptable or an -ism. In the case of feminism, switching the target demographic of "men" with "immigrants" and "women" with "natively born" works pretty well. Someone talking about "toxic immigrants", listing points of negative stereotypes of immigrants, and it would enlist feelings of racism. One can have a level discussion about crime, theft, murder or rape, but if it get associate directly to a discussion about toxic immigrants then what people see is racism. People can write "It's not all immigrants!" as much as they want and it won't change a thing. People will see it as an attack and rush to defend themselves. The only thing talking about "toxic masculinity" results in is harm, as has been demonstrated every single time it get discussed here on HN.

39 points by Reedx 7y ago

One thing I've been thinking a lot about lately is the increasing lack of productive physical activity available to men in a lot of settings. Idleness and sedentary lifestyles are increasing in prevalence. Manual labor and sports are both on the decline. Physical activities are good for the body and soul, and it's sad to see them disappearing. I think catharsis is important for men in particular, and idleness is particularly destructive for men. If there aren't engaging activities available for men, they will make something up to stay busy, often in destructive patterns.

throwaway12757 7y ago

I'm not sure, but I might be able to shed some light on this growing up in a "boys" world and then coming out as trans and transitioning to female. I have also spent 6 years in the Navy (on submarines in an all male environment) before I transitioned. Toxic masculinity is a real thing, the amount of men don't cry, men don't show emotion, and the large amount of "locker room" talk involving treating women as sex objects was incredibility high. I've been in these male spaces, not saying anything, but watching and I can truly tell you, it's completely disgusting. In the end, I'm actually sad that most men don't feel like they can talk about their vulnerabilities and emotions. It's a hard world to live in like that.

forgottenpass 7y ago
>the amount of men don't cry, men don't show emotion >I'm actually sad that most men don't feel like they can talk about their vulnerabilities and emotions. Do they not talk about it, or have they not talked about it _to you_? I used to believe the narrative that men don't talk about emotional issues, assuming my lifetime of experiences talking to other men about our perspectives, fears, limitations and feelings was some sort of aberration. It finally fell apart when I made some friends in the trades. If _they_ didn't even follow the mold, and were willing to confide in me whenever something was on their mind, then why is this assumed to be a widely-pervasive male trait? As far as I can tell, men are more than willing to talk about personal topics they keep guarded. It just has to be with someone that they care to have a real conversation with.

jacinabox 7y ago

Uh oh social justice starting to get away from you? I can see that,

lxmorj 7y ago

This is silly. Men are humans. Humans are subject to cultural norms. Cultural norms that enable bad behavior in men specifically create things like ‘toxic masculinity’. The problem isn’t the gender of your kids. It’s how you raise them to treat other people. Primarily, women.

thrwaway69 7y ago
> Primarily women Do people learn automatically how to be not toxic to men?
belorn 7y ago
Its the same with Muslims. Muslims are humans. Humans are subject to cultural norms. Cultural norms that enable bad behavior in Muslims specifically create things like "terrorists". The problem isn't the religion of people. It how they teach them to treat other people. Primarily people of other religions.

olliej 7y ago

This article seems to be interpreting any attack on "toxic" masculinity as an assault on masculinity in general. Things we consider "toxic masculinity" are (for example) * Sexism and misogyny - that is women are less than or inferior to men, and should be focused on serving them. * Violence is a reasonable response to being upset * Men who aren't sufficiently "masculine" (often defined in terms of the above), are also lesser * Women who aren't sufficiently "feminine" need to be put in their place (understand who's in charge, and who they should serve) Are there a few idiots who go beyond that? yes. Just like there are idiots who go bizarrely far on any other topic. But attacking toxic masculinity is not attacking masculinity. It's not attacking men and boys. If you feel attacks on toxic masculinity are attacks on you fathers/husbands/sons maybe there should be some thought about what about their behavior overlaps the above, and whether you think that's ok?

forgottenpass 7y ago
>If you feel attacks on toxic masculinity are attacks on you fathers/husbands/sons maybe there should be some thought about what about their behavior overlaps the above, and whether you think that's ok? My favorite part of social commentary these days is how it's layered in "I'm not poorly conveying a point, you're hearing me wrong and/or you're the problem."
belorn 7y ago
People who use the term "toxic masculinity" will always be perceived by others as wailed misandry, just as "toxic [target demographic] would get perceived as some form of wailed -ism. Bringing an association between a strongly negative stereotype of an a demographic is an invitation for harm. A litmus test I often use in politics is to switch the target demographic of a negative stereotype with one of the opposite side of the political spectrum. It usually show if a phrase, term or statement is acceptable or an -ism. In the case of feminism, switching the target demographic of "men" with "immigrants" and "women" with "natively born" works pretty well. Someone talking about "toxic immigrants", listing points of negative stereotypes of immigrants, and it would enlist feelings of racism. One can have a level discussion about crime, theft, murder or rape, but if it get associate directly to a discussion about toxic immigrants then what people see is racism. People can write "It's not all immigrants!" as much as they want and it won't change a thing. People will see it as an attack and rush to defend themselves. The only thing talking about "toxic masculinity" results in is harm, as has been demonstrated every single time it get discussed here on HN.