5 ms·

Battery production seems like a problem that can be solved right now with money. VW and Toyota could partner with a 3rd party (like Tesla and Panasonic) and bui

by wil421 7y ago

Battery production seems like a problem that can be solved right now with money. VW and Toyota could partner with a 3rd party (like Tesla and Panasonic) and build factories. Custom silicon seems like a much harder problem for VM/Toyota. Unless a supplier can build something for them I don’t see either company innovating like Tesla. Basically Tesla’s secret sauce is the Tech not the EV components.

samirm 7y ago
Both problems could be solved with money, but according to the article it seems the giants are refusing to move due to historical relationships (which tesla does not have).
lyime 7y ago
It’s both. Continued improvements to battery tech will bring the costs down for Tesla which is important for them to do if they want to succeed. Custom hardware and software will also give them cost advantage and help them in the long term.
cma 7y ago
> Unless a supplier can build something for them I don’t see either company innovating like Tesla. Mobileye?
- NotSammyHagar 7y ago
  tesla used mobileye early, then intel bought mobileye so t doesn't use them anymore
  - rasz 7y ago
    Tesla doesnt use mobileye after their unauthorized firmware modifications cut drivers head. Mobileye was the party backing out of the deal. https://www.wsj.com/articles/mobileye-ends-partnership-with-tesla-1469544028 https://www.wsj.com/articles/mobileye-ends-partnership-with-... " Mobileye NV said it would no longer provide its computer chips and algorithms to Tesla after a current contract ends due to disagreements about how the technology was deployed. Mobileye provides core technology for Tesla’s Autopilot system, which allows cars to drive themselves in limited conditions."
aguyfromnb 7y ago
>Custom silicon seems like a much harder problem for VM/Toyota What evidence is there that custom silicon has any advantage in the self-driving race, let alone in cost competitiveness?
- Slartie 7y ago
  None. And this is exactly the problem: Tesla might have a nice piece of silicon there, but that doesn't solve the problem of still being far, far away from having a working algorithm for level 5 self driving. They have a supercomputer in their cars, but can only run minesweeper on it, so to speak. Their hardware (maybe, at best) solves one of the easy pieces of the self-driving puzzle. It doesn't get them any closer to solving the hard parts. But it sure helps from a marketing perspective, which is kind of important if you want to continue selling a $6000 feature that essentially is just a promise for the future and thus requires buyers to "believe".
nix0n 7y ago
> Custom silicon seems like a much harder problem for VM/Toyota Nvidia built a custom chip for Nintendo, I'm sure they would build one for Toyota or VW.
- kcb 7y ago
  The switch chip is an off the shelf Tegra X1.
SEJeff 7y ago
It isn't just production, but is also the chemistry. Tesla has the lowest amount of cobalt and nickel in their batteries of any battery manufacturer in the world. It makes their batteries cheaper, but also use less rare earth minerals (which are difficult to get ahold of at their scales). Tesla isn't sharing their chemistry, which is demonstrably better than anything LG Chem or Samsung, etc has been able to come up with. As a result, their batteries are actually better. You can scale up manufacturing of inferior batteries, but you still will have an inferior product.
- MagnumOpus 7y ago
  > Tesla isn't sharing their chemistry Isn't it Panasonic that manufactures the batteries and sells them to Tesla? Can't they sell the same batteries to everyone else too?
  - AtlasBarfed 7y ago
    And right now Tesla / Panasonic is maxed out in their battery production (still a scale that all other manufacturers fundamentally don't have the ability to do, much less profitably). If/when Tesla increases battery production beyond its storage and car/semi lines of business, they will probably acquire/merge other car companies on the cheap. The only thing that can eliminate Tesla's advantage is a catch-up solid battery tech that everyone has access to, and even then Tesla will have lots of infrastructure advantages.
    - SEJeff 7y ago
      That’s not true. Panasonic disagreed with you in their latest earnings call. They’re ramping up for more production. I think Elon has stated they can ramp up 30-50% with the existing space.
  - SEJeff 7y ago
    Tesla develops the chemistry and has Panasonic manufacture the cells. Tesla builds the battery packs from Panasonic cells. The intellectual property for the chemistry is 100% Tesla’s and can not be reused by Panasonic for other manufacturers. In places where Panasonic builds batteries for other manufacturers, they use more traditional chemistry that includes more rare earth metals. Tesla’s chemistry is patented and can’t be duplicated. It is one of their several “moats”.

by wil421 7y ago

samirm 7y ago

Both problems could be solved with money, but according to the article it seems the giants are refusing to move due to historical relationships (which tesla does not have).

lyime 7y ago

It’s both. Continued improvements to battery tech will bring the costs down for Tesla which is important for them to do if they want to succeed. Custom hardware and software will also give them cost advantage and help them in the long term.

cma 7y ago

> Unless a supplier can build something for them I don’t see either company innovating like Tesla. Mobileye?

NotSammyHagar 7y ago
tesla used mobileye early, then intel bought mobileye so t doesn't use them anymore
- rasz 7y ago
  Tesla doesnt use mobileye after their unauthorized firmware modifications cut drivers head. Mobileye was the party backing out of the deal. https://www.wsj.com/articles/mobileye-ends-partnership-with-tesla-1469544028 https://www.wsj.com/articles/mobileye-ends-partnership-with-... " Mobileye NV said it would no longer provide its computer chips and algorithms to Tesla after a current contract ends due to disagreements about how the technology was deployed. Mobileye provides core technology for Tesla’s Autopilot system, which allows cars to drive themselves in limited conditions."

aguyfromnb 7y ago

>Custom silicon seems like a much harder problem for VM/Toyota What evidence is there that custom silicon has any advantage in the self-driving race, let alone in cost competitiveness?

Slartie 7y ago
None. And this is exactly the problem: Tesla might have a nice piece of silicon there, but that doesn't solve the problem of still being far, far away from having a working algorithm for level 5 self driving. They have a supercomputer in their cars, but can only run minesweeper on it, so to speak. Their hardware (maybe, at best) solves one of the easy pieces of the self-driving puzzle. It doesn't get them any closer to solving the hard parts. But it sure helps from a marketing perspective, which is kind of important if you want to continue selling a $6000 feature that essentially is just a promise for the future and thus requires buyers to "believe".

nix0n 7y ago

> Custom silicon seems like a much harder problem for VM/Toyota Nvidia built a custom chip for Nintendo, I'm sure they would build one for Toyota or VW.

kcb 7y ago
The switch chip is an off the shelf Tegra X1.

SEJeff 7y ago

It isn't just production, but is also the chemistry. Tesla has the lowest amount of cobalt and nickel in their batteries of any battery manufacturer in the world. It makes their batteries cheaper, but also use less rare earth minerals (which are difficult to get ahold of at their scales). Tesla isn't sharing their chemistry, which is demonstrably better than anything LG Chem or Samsung, etc has been able to come up with. As a result, their batteries are actually better. You can scale up manufacturing of inferior batteries, but you still will have an inferior product.

MagnumOpus 7y ago
> Tesla isn't sharing their chemistry Isn't it Panasonic that manufactures the batteries and sells them to Tesla? Can't they sell the same batteries to everyone else too?
- AtlasBarfed 7y ago
  And right now Tesla / Panasonic is maxed out in their battery production (still a scale that all other manufacturers fundamentally don't have the ability to do, much less profitably). If/when Tesla increases battery production beyond its storage and car/semi lines of business, they will probably acquire/merge other car companies on the cheap. The only thing that can eliminate Tesla's advantage is a catch-up solid battery tech that everyone has access to, and even then Tesla will have lots of infrastructure advantages.
  - SEJeff 7y ago
    That’s not true. Panasonic disagreed with you in their latest earnings call. They’re ramping up for more production. I think Elon has stated they can ramp up 30-50% with the existing space.
- SEJeff 7y ago
  Tesla develops the chemistry and has Panasonic manufacture the cells. Tesla builds the battery packs from Panasonic cells. The intellectual property for the chemistry is 100% Tesla’s and can not be reused by Panasonic for other manufacturers. In places where Panasonic builds batteries for other manufacturers, they use more traditional chemistry that includes more rare earth metals. Tesla’s chemistry is patented and can’t be duplicated. It is one of their several “moats”.