14 ms·

This is grand, apart from the build quality of the mechanics is ~10 years behind. Go to a tesla showroom, Look at the doors of the model three. Note that they

This is grand, apart from the build quality of the mechanics is ~10 years behind. Go to a tesla showroom, Look at the doors of the model three. Note that they don't line up. Look at the paint job, notice that there are bumps and chips, especailly on the edges of the doors. This is on a _demo_ car, stuck in a showroom. these should be perfect. Even a budget Kia has better build quality than this. Its not the isolated parts of a car that makes it good, its the whole package. (yes that works both ways. )

dagw 7y ago
Is this purely an aesthetic thing or is it an actual structural problem that has an appreciable effect on the day to day operation or reliability of the car. Or is your argument more that if they can't fix the 'easy' things then that is an indication of more systemic problems with the integrity of the car
spectrum1234 7y ago
I just checked my garage. It looks fine. Which one of us is lying?
xxpor 7y ago
When was the last time you went and looked? Build quality has improved substantially since first Model 3 deliveries.
- xvf22 7y ago
  Just saw a 2020 top spec model 3 that still has a few misaligned gaps and bunching seals in the doors. The leather around the back where it was punched out is creased. It's a great car, but the for and finish sadly still has a ways to go.
  - Retric 7y ago
    Yea, Tesla is selling cars sight unseen which makes minor cosmetic issues a very low priority for them. It says less about build quality than their sales model. Personally I doubt most customers notice or care, but it’s an obvious thing to criticize.
    - emiliobumachar 7y ago
      Here in Brazil for quite a few years it's been standard to not see a new car for days to weeks after buying it, even on traditional brick-and-mortar dealers where you can test-drive a different car of the same model before buying yours. I don't know about the luxury market.
codingmess 7y ago
Even 10 years ago, normal cars had doors that line up, and proper paint jobs.
- latortuga 7y ago
  This is a brand new car company that has built manufacturing from scratch. 10 years ago, car companies had been manufacturing cars for decades. This stuff doesn't happen overnight.
  - neuronic 7y ago
    Ah ok, this justifies luxury prices then. I mean early adopter surcharges.
    - mcv 7y ago
      It's absolutely an early-adopter surcharge. At luxury prices, because that's the only way to start a completely new car manufacturer at this scale. Most new car companies are small affairs that hand-build fairly simple cars at luxury prices from their garage. They get away with it because they offer something unique. So does Tesla, only they try to do it at scale.
      - TeMPOraL 7y ago
        It's not like this wasn't a publicly known fact, a strategy they officially wrote about.
        marvin 7y ago
        Since 2006, in fact, if I remember correctly.
        michaelt 7y ago
        Pretty sure the Roadster and the Model S were the luxury cars, and the Model 3 was supposed to be the affordable, non-luxury one.
dontdoitpls 7y ago
The power of marketing is incredible. No one else could get away with Tesla quality at luxury pricing, but they sell vehicles.
- neuronic 7y ago
  Let's take a look at the economic models again that assume all consumers are rational agents...
- Voloskaya 7y ago
  Save for the small detail that 33k USD for an electric vehicle is not luxury pricing at all. * Nissan Leaf: 31k * Kia Soule EV: 33k * Chevrolet Bolt: 38k
  - rthomas6 7y ago
    Where are you getting the 33k number? The model 3 is more like 40k base price.
    - ameister14 7y ago
      in the article: "This is the takeaway from Nikkei Business Publications' teardown of the Model 3, the most affordable car in the U.S. automaker's all-electric lineup, starting at about $33,000."
      - perl4ever 7y ago
        Looking at very low mileage 2019 Teslas for sale on Autotrader, in the $40-50K range is about right. The cheapest used 2019 model 3 in the whole US is more than $33K. And the only 2020 examples are much more expensive. You can argue forever about technicalities, but $33K is not an apples-to-apples comparison. In fact, I would say if you are comparing brand new 2020 cars, $50K+ for the model 3 is more realistic, and you should take into account the discounts other cars have.
        7y ago
netfl0 7y ago
These seem like legitimate but insignificant issues. As long as it is functionally sound, I don't think minor cosmetic issues will materially impact public opinion. The general public is unaware of body panel alignment as a concept.
- mark-r 7y ago
  That's what Detroit car companies said when Japanese car quality started taking off. The worst fit and finish I ever saw was my sister's 1980 Dodge Aspen.
  - netfl0 7y ago
    Sorry can you clarify your point? I am lost in a bit of ambiguity in the syntax.
    - mark-r 7y ago
      "I don't think minor cosmetic issues will materially impact public opinion" is exactly the opinion of the Detroit car companies before they started losing market share to the Japanese companies. They've never recovered. The Japanese were widely regarded to be higher quality machines, and the fit/finish was a big part of that perception.
      - netfl0 7y ago
        Ah thanks. I’d add my impression was that the mechanical reliability and price were the key factors. It would also be important for us to agree on what truly is minor cosmetics versus total negligence or awful design and material quality.
  - rootusrootus 7y ago
    Agreed. There is a reason that the Camry has been the best selling car in the US just about every single year since 1997. Boring reliability is very attractive to a lot of consumers. Enthusiasts will put up with Tesla quality in order to have the technology, but appliance car buyers are much less willing to accept that.
onetimemanytime 7y ago
Exactly. If x chip can do the job and then some, who cares if they have one 4 times as powerful? The car has many parts...
londons_explore 7y ago
Yet most cars you buy today don't even have Wifi - a technology that's been around for over 20 years. There's no API for controlling them apart from a CAN bus which is barely documented, not wireless, not routable over networks, can't even deliver video feeds, and dates from 1986. It feels like car technology stopped when the generation of those born in the 40's retired. Ever since then, younger generations have been focussed on the internet, computers and phones, and the car has become a tool like a pencil - it works well enough, and new models only see incremental changes.
- wolfgke 7y ago
  > There's no API for controlling them apart from a CAN bus which is barely documented, not wireless, The fact that the CAN bus is not wireless is rather a feature in terms of safety.
  - archi42 7y ago
    They also do weird stuff like having on bus for the safety critical systems and another for fun stuff like the window lifter. Sometimes the infotainment uses a third bus! /s
  - jayd16 7y ago
    Most modern luxury cars have wireless diagnostics don't they? I believe BMW does at least. Should we shy away from them?
- TeMPOraL 7y ago
  > Yet most cars you buy today don't even have Wifi (...). There's no API for controlling them apart from a CAN bus which is barely documented, not wireless, not routable over networks, can't even deliver video feeds, and dates from 1986. On the one hand - and thank God; routing car controls over networks by default sounds like a tremendously bad idea. On the other hand - while a lucky accident in case of cars, modern electronic devices also don't have these, but for different reasons. When was the last time you could make your phone call people and send text messages over wireless connection, via an API built into the phone? Last time I remember being able to easily do it was in the feature phone era. Modern hardware is increasingly controllable through hidden, restricted, undocumented APIs, or public APIs that require installing third-party software, go through third-party servers, and involve signing some contract or accepting some ToS. That same API-providing-software then proceeds to exfiltrate any and all data it can get its hands on. I do not want any of that in a car.
pmorici 7y ago
Total non-sense; this might have been true about the first ones off the line 2 years ago but hasn't been the case for some time. They also seem to be selling them faster than they can make them so even if true which it isn't the market doesn't seem to care.
- kolinko 7y ago
  The market will care when it comes to upgrading to the new model in a few years.
  - rcMgD2BwE72F 7y ago
    People have been upgrading Tesla for years already. There are been some very extensive surveys about Tesla reliability (about all kinds of defects) and owners say they are overwhelming satisfied, overall: https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2019-tesla-model-3-survey/ https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2019-tesla-model-3-survey...
SEJeff 7y ago
A lot of the tech in the Tesla vehicles is truly innovative. Look at the seemingly simple cooling bottle they use, which is the best in the entire automotive industry (and patented by them): https://jalopnik.com/the-tesla-model-3s-superbottle-easter-egg-is-a-fascin-1830992728 https://jalopnik.com/the-tesla-model-3s-superbottle-easter-e... I keep hearing people talk about fit and finish problems with Tesla vehicles, but I simply don't see it. I was so paranoid when I took delivery of mine that I literally brought a measuring tape. They've long since fixed the body panel problems and it manifested itself more with older Model S/X and the very first batch of Model 3s. This "problem" is pretty much gone, and this argument is like beating a dead horse. Disclaimer: own a Model 3 and have since Nov 2018
- pmart123 7y ago
  Does it really matter long-term? A lot of people seem fixated on it. I get it if you are buying a car at the moment. Then there’s an innovation vs. quality issue. For the company though, it seems like it should be far easier to catch up on the quality of the trim as it’s purely executing on something many OEMs have already figured out, and there are proven, known ways to fix those types of issues?
- andrewtbham 7y ago
  Even Bob Lutz thinks Tesla has good fit and finish now. "But, when next to the car, I was stunned. Not only was the paint without any discernible flaw, but the various panels formed a body of precision that was beyond reproach. Gaps from hood to fenders, doors to frame, and all the others appeared to be perfectly even, equal side-to-side, and completely parallel. Gaps of 3.5 to 4.5mm are considered word-class. This Model 3 measured up." https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/a28008116/tesla-model-3-build-quality-bob-lutz/ https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/a28008116/tesla-model-...
- fiftyfifty 7y ago
  Agreed, I have a 2019 Model 3. My car does have a few panel gaps that are not the exact same width from one side of the car to the other, but you are literally talking about a millimeter or two here or there, no one would ever notice. I've never heard of anyone complaining about the paint job on a Tesla, the paint on ours looks perfect. The interior seats are super comfortable, probably the most comfortable car seats I've ever sat in, and I've never seen any defects with the seats either. Overall Tesla's customer satisfaction is really, really high. Most owners are extremely satisfied with their cars, even if they have a few warts. They really are the Apple of the automotive world.
jays 7y ago
I think you’re missing the point of what consumers find valuable about Tesla cars. It’s not the body or fancy interiors. The tech is what people want and because of that, cosmetic issues is an ok tradeoff. Of course, as other companies catch up on the Tech side, they’ll need to fix those issues, but they’ve got time.
- michaelt 7y ago
  It's true that people who have brought Teslas have accepted Tesla's current build quality. But it's the people who haven't brought Teslas where the company's growth will come from! The worry with things like gaps between panels isn't just cosmetic - it's that the process control to achieve "reliably waterproof even after 15 years" is harder than "visibly perfect" There was a time when a sunroof was a liability on a car as they so often developed leaks. People who can remember this time aren't looking to return to it :)
  - perl4ever 7y ago
    You seem to think that disposing cars like iPhones is a problem. Sure, it's an environmental problem, and not what people who drive a Corolla for 20 years would prefer, but is it a practical problem for Tesla, or a huge opportunity? You know, look at Apple. They don't have to have everyone be a customer as long as it seems like the best people are and they make ungodly profits from each of them.
gdubs 7y ago
I hear this fit and finish critique of Tesla often. But the whole package of a Tesla is clearly compelling to people, who are willing to pay a luxury price for it. High end Volvo’s are a good example of old-school quality — gorgeous interiors, beautiful trim. But they’re still predominantly internal combustion engine era designs. The height of it from a luxury finish standpoint. But, Tesla’s different. Maybe it’s that petro cars reached a peak, and the only way to really differentiate has come down to “door sound” and body panel alignment measured in nanometers.
- falcolas 7y ago
  Fit and Finish are exterior indicators of the quality of the entire vehicle. If they don’t care enough to make the panels line up, what assurances do we have that they do care enough to torque all of the bolts correctly, to ensure that the motor is mounted correctly, to ensure that the suspension has been properly calibrated? Also, the condition of the body and the interior matter more to the vehicle’s resale value than the condition of the rest of the car - again they are indicators of the quality and care taken with the rest of the car.
  - jayd16 7y ago
    It's a heuristic not a rule.
    - falcolas 7y ago
      Is it? Getting the spacing down so its not noticeable by humans is doing manufacturing and assembly with tolerances measured in whole millimeters. It’s easily the largest possible tolerances allowed within the manufacture and assembly of the car. It should be some of the easiest manufacturing and assembly to be done. If they can’t manage tolerances measured in millimeters, how can they manage manufacturing and assembly tolerances measured in the thousandths of a millimeter?
      - nwallin 7y ago
        > Is it? Yes. Internal combustion engines require intense tolerances. If your cylinder head is 1mm out of spec you're going to have serious problems. But if the wire winding bundle for the electric motor is 5mm out of spec? You'll be fine. The areas in a Tesla where tolerances are actually important- the batteries and PCBs- are subject to completely different engineering practices. Nobody's going to get cross trained from fitting door panels to placing SMCs... which is done by a robot anyway. Do you (literally) kick the tires of a car before you buy it?
dghughes 7y ago
> Look at the doors of the model three. Note that they don't line up. I'm not in the US but people in my region comment how all US vehicles have poor panel quality. I've spoken to paint shop employees and garage mechanics who say the panels of US cars have gaps that are embarrassingly large. In the mind of a buyer that makes you question overall quality. And never buy a white car either they rust because the panels don't get warm enough to drive out moisture.
- fiftyfifty 7y ago
  It's all relative, in the American southwest nearly every car is white, it's the only color that's livable. Moisture is the least of their concerns there.
- psadri 7y ago
  I had never heard this about white cars! This must apply to any car maker and maybe other light colors?
  - cultofmetatron 7y ago
    anytime I go to a tropical country, almost all the cars are white for precisely this reason
- gbronner 7y ago
  I've bought two white cars from the southewest and used them in the northeast. One had body panels that were mostly plastic, and lasted 18 years. The other is five years old. Neither shows any sign of rust.
C14L 7y ago
And yet, Tesla costumers constantly poll as the most satisfied of all new car owners. Maybe there are more important things than bumps in the paint? Just guessing, I don't own a car.
- sliken 7y ago
  Indeed. Great headlights (without paying for the upgrade that much of the competition requires), great safety, great acceleration, great stereo, great nav, great handling, etc.
- henrikschroder 7y ago
  > And yet, Tesla costumers constantly poll as the most satisfied of all new car owners. I wonder what the demographics are exactly of people who buy Model 3's, is it their first $40k+ vehicle? One thing is abundantly clear, the people who are super excited about "new" tech in Teslas aren't following motor news. People seem to have no clue whatsoever that a lot of the tech you can get in a Tesla exists in other cars as well. Tesla is definitely at the top of the pack, but they're not ahead of the pack. It looks exactly like when Apple announce a "new" feature, and all the Android owners moan and bitch that their phones have had this feature for years, yet all the apple owners are super happy about their new iPhone with this new cool feature that they've never seen before. They "shouldn't" be happy, but due to marketing warping people's perceptions, they are. I suspect something like that might apply to Teslas and the people who buy them. If you've never owned or driven a BMW 3-series or similar, and then switched to a Tesla Model 3, I perfectly understand why you think your Tesla is the best car you've ever had.
  - NotSammyHagar 7y ago
    What is the marketing and hype that tesla is doing? they don't have paid ads. The make announcements and blog posts. Meanwhile, every other legacy car company pays millions a year in paid ads, my local dealers must spend 100k plus a year. What car has the web browser like my tesla that lets me use tesla-waze? What car has the apps that tesla does? Sure, there are some cars with a few things. No electric car until this year has the features that my 2012 tesla model s 85 has, including range but also including all the tech. 6 years ahead, some specifics: https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Automobiles/Tesla-teardown-finds-electronics-6-years-ahead-of-Toyota-and-VW2 https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Automobiles/Tesla-teardown-...
maxcan 7y ago
I have an early VIN (004xxx series) model 3 from 2018. One of the earliest non employee deliveries. There are some panel gaps. Judging a Tesla by the panel gaps is reminiscent of the Blackberry execs judging early iPhones by battery life (ironically). The game has changed. Or, in other words: No wireless. Less space than a nomad. Lame. https://slashdot.org/story/01/10/23/1816257/apple-releases-ipod https://slashdot.org/story/01/10/23/1816257/apple-releases-i...
- abc_lisper 7y ago
  I chuckled, as I remember reading that comment then
rcMgD2BwE72F 7y ago
Less than 0.5% of owners say they are dissatisfied with the exterior appearance of their Tesla (including paint issues)[0]. And quality has continued to improve since then. That is, by far, the most extensive and reliable source we have on this topic but please point to any other study that might say the contrary. [0] https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2019-tesla-model-3-survey/ https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2019-tesla-model-3-survey...
- GaryNumanVevo 7y ago
  Pretty strong selection bias here, if people were turned away by the lacking build quality they wouldn't be an owner. Also a pretty huge post-hoc rationalization gap here
akmarinov 7y ago
The showroom comments are true for the US cars, but the China made ones are impeccable.
LyndsySimon 7y ago
> Even a budget Kia has better build quality than this. Perhaps ironically, Kia has really upped their game in the past few years, to the point where I'd argue they aren't a good example for this comparison.
krtong 7y ago
Also they asked an engineer at a car manufacturer if they could make a computer. He said "We cannot do it." but I feel like the article omitted him saying something like "That's what Bosch is for."
fnordfnordfnord 7y ago
Don't look at my GMC then. Panel gaps are bad. Paint so thin you can see through it. Rattles and squeaks everywhere. And the electronics are of course garbage.
sliken 7y ago
Did you personally see this? Or are you just repeating what you saw somewhere. I gave my model 3 a close look before I bought it and found none of the mentioned problems.
- KaiserPro 7y ago
  Yes, tesla showroom, in a major shopping centre in the UK, in december 2019 I was _very_ skeptical of people talking about fit and finish. I was assuming its people trash talking. However, I have now seen it with my own eyes.
- rootusrootus 7y ago
  There have been some pretty egregious examples posted in the last month or so on r/teslamotors. So it still happens, though I don't know why. Mine is basically fine, though I'd say it isn't quite up to the level of fit and finish as my Camaro.
Tade0 7y ago
I see Teslas daily and while they don't match the German Big Three (European built ones at least) on fit and finish, they aren't that far from your typical imported American car. Nevertheless buyers don't seem to care that much about this.
jayd16 7y ago
>Even a budget Kia has better build quality than this. Is this a recent thing or do you mean the $20k+ as budget in this context? The last budget (cheap manual) Kia I sat in felt like a tin can deathtrap.
natch 7y ago
2018
abc_lisper 7y ago
I was skeptical of Tesla, I didn't buy it when all my friends got it. The car seemed bland inside, devoid of any fashion/art/decor etc. The panel gaps .. ughh.. I test drove it 3 times. Hated it the first time in 2018. Late 2019, I used auto-pilot on 880 and 101. I was sold. There isn't a car available now that can drive on Autopilot with that confidence. I don't let it drive on auto over 30mph, and under it is where it really shines, takes the edge off of bumper to bumper traffic. I bought it. I took delivery on the last day of year, was a little pissed off at Tesla, that they left me with little choice if there were any issues with it. I got home, saw no issues and felt relieved. I now love the car. The Audio is turned on the moment I open the door. The temperature is set to my liking and I glide with one finger press. There are no keys, and my car knows I go to work in the morning, so the directions are set. I get on the freeway, usually bumper to bumper, set autopilot, chill out and listen to radio. I think I am a much happier person now.
- lacker 7y ago
  It does annoy me that my Mazda takes forever to go from turning the car on to Spotify playing via CarPlay. There’s even a pointless popup warning you not to get distracted that you have to click through.
- rootusrootus 7y ago
  I live in a rainy area of the country. Periodically my car annoys me to the point of cursing, because the auto wipers are extremely stupid. And because there is only one non-touch/voice control for them, you're kinda stuck. I also wish it would not refuse to unlock about 10% of the time. I may just get the fob.
  - abc_lisper 7y ago
    Agreed. The wipers could be better. I haven’t encountered the unlocking problem though. What did Tesla say?
    - rootusrootus 7y ago
      I haven't bothered asking Tesla to explain the unreliable unlocking, since it seems to happen to almost everyone else periodically, and some people quite a lot. I just take the phone out of my pocket and hold the door handle open for a while until it figures it out. After 10 or 15 seconds I usually just take out my wallet and use the RFID. I also started using sentry mode even in my garage, which helps tremendously, because it seems like the root cause is the car going to sleep.
JPKab 7y ago
I'm not a Tesla owner. In fact, I find the company's hype driven marketing annoying. That being said, your info is out of date. The fit and finish isn't an issue anymore.
- KaiserPro 7y ago
  unless they've changed the stock in the showroom in the last 2 months, then this is a false assertion.
- rootusrootus 7y ago
  People still have problems. I hang out on r/teslamotors periodically, and I own a recently built Model 3. They have gotten better, but some people have significant issues to this day.
ehnto 7y ago
You can buy a car for one focus or another though. I think it is fair to assume technology is the main focus of buying a Tesla. In the 90s there were a myriad of pragmatic sports cars built, with the focus on performance over fine details. Door gaps has been a funny development, it's important aesthetically of course, but I think unfairly it has become a shorthand for a car's overall build quality.
- matt-attack 7y ago
  People like tangible, easily understood, and (typically) one-dimensional metrics for assessing product quality. Look at: Mega-pixels for cameras back in the day, and sheet thread-count. Neither of those things is telling the whole story nor are they even directly related to quality. But people latch on to them because they’re a single number, and easy to compare. No one understands what’s actually inside a car and what physically distinguishes a good car from a bad one, so they latch onto the one parameter they can actually see and touch and understand: body panel alignment and paint quality.

dagw 7y ago

Is this purely an aesthetic thing or is it an actual structural problem that has an appreciable effect on the day to day operation or reliability of the car. Or is your argument more that if they can't fix the 'easy' things then that is an indication of more systemic problems with the integrity of the car

spectrum1234 7y ago

I just checked my garage. It looks fine. Which one of us is lying?

xxpor 7y ago

When was the last time you went and looked? Build quality has improved substantially since first Model 3 deliveries.

xvf22 7y ago
Just saw a 2020 top spec model 3 that still has a few misaligned gaps and bunching seals in the doors. The leather around the back where it was punched out is creased. It's a great car, but the for and finish sadly still has a ways to go.
- Retric 7y ago
  Yea, Tesla is selling cars sight unseen which makes minor cosmetic issues a very low priority for them. It says less about build quality than their sales model. Personally I doubt most customers notice or care, but it’s an obvious thing to criticize.
  - emiliobumachar 7y ago
    Here in Brazil for quite a few years it's been standard to not see a new car for days to weeks after buying it, even on traditional brick-and-mortar dealers where you can test-drive a different car of the same model before buying yours. I don't know about the luxury market.

codingmess 7y ago

Even 10 years ago, normal cars had doors that line up, and proper paint jobs.

latortuga 7y ago
This is a brand new car company that has built manufacturing from scratch. 10 years ago, car companies had been manufacturing cars for decades. This stuff doesn't happen overnight.
- neuronic 7y ago
  Ah ok, this justifies luxury prices then. I mean early adopter surcharges.
  - mcv 7y ago
    It's absolutely an early-adopter surcharge. At luxury prices, because that's the only way to start a completely new car manufacturer at this scale. Most new car companies are small affairs that hand-build fairly simple cars at luxury prices from their garage. They get away with it because they offer something unique. So does Tesla, only they try to do it at scale.
    - TeMPOraL 7y ago
      It's not like this wasn't a publicly known fact, a strategy they officially wrote about.
      - marvin 7y ago
        Since 2006, in fact, if I remember correctly.
      - michaelt 7y ago
        Pretty sure the Roadster and the Model S were the luxury cars, and the Model 3 was supposed to be the affordable, non-luxury one.

dontdoitpls 7y ago

The power of marketing is incredible. No one else could get away with Tesla quality at luxury pricing, but they sell vehicles.

neuronic 7y ago
Let's take a look at the economic models again that assume all consumers are rational agents...
Voloskaya 7y ago
Save for the small detail that 33k USD for an electric vehicle is not luxury pricing at all. * Nissan Leaf: 31k * Kia Soule EV: 33k * Chevrolet Bolt: 38k
- rthomas6 7y ago
  Where are you getting the 33k number? The model 3 is more like 40k base price.
  - ameister14 7y ago
    in the article: "This is the takeaway from Nikkei Business Publications' teardown of the Model 3, the most affordable car in the U.S. automaker's all-electric lineup, starting at about $33,000."
    - perl4ever 7y ago
      Looking at very low mileage 2019 Teslas for sale on Autotrader, in the $40-50K range is about right. The cheapest used 2019 model 3 in the whole US is more than $33K. And the only 2020 examples are much more expensive. You can argue forever about technicalities, but $33K is not an apples-to-apples comparison. In fact, I would say if you are comparing brand new 2020 cars, $50K+ for the model 3 is more realistic, and you should take into account the discounts other cars have.
      - 7y ago

netfl0 7y ago

These seem like legitimate but insignificant issues. As long as it is functionally sound, I don't think minor cosmetic issues will materially impact public opinion. The general public is unaware of body panel alignment as a concept.

mark-r 7y ago
That's what Detroit car companies said when Japanese car quality started taking off. The worst fit and finish I ever saw was my sister's 1980 Dodge Aspen.
- netfl0 7y ago
  Sorry can you clarify your point? I am lost in a bit of ambiguity in the syntax.
  - mark-r 7y ago
    "I don't think minor cosmetic issues will materially impact public opinion" is exactly the opinion of the Detroit car companies before they started losing market share to the Japanese companies. They've never recovered. The Japanese were widely regarded to be higher quality machines, and the fit/finish was a big part of that perception.
    - netfl0 7y ago
      Ah thanks. I’d add my impression was that the mechanical reliability and price were the key factors. It would also be important for us to agree on what truly is minor cosmetics versus total negligence or awful design and material quality.
- rootusrootus 7y ago
  Agreed. There is a reason that the Camry has been the best selling car in the US just about every single year since 1997. Boring reliability is very attractive to a lot of consumers. Enthusiasts will put up with Tesla quality in order to have the technology, but appliance car buyers are much less willing to accept that.

onetimemanytime 7y ago

Exactly. If x chip can do the job and then some, who cares if they have one 4 times as powerful? The car has many parts...

londons_explore 7y ago

Yet most cars you buy today don't even have Wifi - a technology that's been around for over 20 years. There's no API for controlling them apart from a CAN bus which is barely documented, not wireless, not routable over networks, can't even deliver video feeds, and dates from 1986. It feels like car technology stopped when the generation of those born in the 40's retired. Ever since then, younger generations have been focussed on the internet, computers and phones, and the car has become a tool like a pencil - it works well enough, and new models only see incremental changes.

wolfgke 7y ago
> There's no API for controlling them apart from a CAN bus which is barely documented, not wireless, The fact that the CAN bus is not wireless is rather a feature in terms of safety.
- archi42 7y ago
  They also do weird stuff like having on bus for the safety critical systems and another for fun stuff like the window lifter. Sometimes the infotainment uses a third bus! /s
- jayd16 7y ago
  Most modern luxury cars have wireless diagnostics don't they? I believe BMW does at least. Should we shy away from them?
TeMPOraL 7y ago
> Yet most cars you buy today don't even have Wifi (...). There's no API for controlling them apart from a CAN bus which is barely documented, not wireless, not routable over networks, can't even deliver video feeds, and dates from 1986. On the one hand - and thank God; routing car controls over networks by default sounds like a tremendously bad idea. On the other hand - while a lucky accident in case of cars, modern electronic devices also don't have these, but for different reasons. When was the last time you could make your phone call people and send text messages over wireless connection, via an API built into the phone? Last time I remember being able to easily do it was in the feature phone era. Modern hardware is increasingly controllable through hidden, restricted, undocumented APIs, or public APIs that require installing third-party software, go through third-party servers, and involve signing some contract or accepting some ToS. That same API-providing-software then proceeds to exfiltrate any and all data it can get its hands on. I do not want any of that in a car.

pmorici 7y ago

Total non-sense; this might have been true about the first ones off the line 2 years ago but hasn't been the case for some time. They also seem to be selling them faster than they can make them so even if true which it isn't the market doesn't seem to care.

kolinko 7y ago
The market will care when it comes to upgrading to the new model in a few years.
- rcMgD2BwE72F 7y ago
  People have been upgrading Tesla for years already. There are been some very extensive surveys about Tesla reliability (about all kinds of defects) and owners say they are overwhelming satisfied, overall: https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2019-tesla-model-3-survey/ https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2019-tesla-model-3-survey...

SEJeff 7y ago

A lot of the tech in the Tesla vehicles is truly innovative. Look at the seemingly simple cooling bottle they use, which is the best in the entire automotive industry (and patented by them): https://jalopnik.com/the-tesla-model-3s-superbottle-easter-egg-is-a-fascin-1830992728 https://jalopnik.com/the-tesla-model-3s-superbottle-easter-e... I keep hearing people talk about fit and finish problems with Tesla vehicles, but I simply don't see it. I was so paranoid when I took delivery of mine that I literally brought a measuring tape. They've long since fixed the body panel problems and it manifested itself more with older Model S/X and the very first batch of Model 3s. This "problem" is pretty much gone, and this argument is like beating a dead horse. Disclaimer: own a Model 3 and have since Nov 2018

pmart123 7y ago
Does it really matter long-term? A lot of people seem fixated on it. I get it if you are buying a car at the moment. Then there’s an innovation vs. quality issue. For the company though, it seems like it should be far easier to catch up on the quality of the trim as it’s purely executing on something many OEMs have already figured out, and there are proven, known ways to fix those types of issues?
andrewtbham 7y ago
Even Bob Lutz thinks Tesla has good fit and finish now. "But, when next to the car, I was stunned. Not only was the paint without any discernible flaw, but the various panels formed a body of precision that was beyond reproach. Gaps from hood to fenders, doors to frame, and all the others appeared to be perfectly even, equal side-to-side, and completely parallel. Gaps of 3.5 to 4.5mm are considered word-class. This Model 3 measured up." https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/a28008116/tesla-model-3-build-quality-bob-lutz/ https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/a28008116/tesla-model-...
fiftyfifty 7y ago
Agreed, I have a 2019 Model 3. My car does have a few panel gaps that are not the exact same width from one side of the car to the other, but you are literally talking about a millimeter or two here or there, no one would ever notice. I've never heard of anyone complaining about the paint job on a Tesla, the paint on ours looks perfect. The interior seats are super comfortable, probably the most comfortable car seats I've ever sat in, and I've never seen any defects with the seats either. Overall Tesla's customer satisfaction is really, really high. Most owners are extremely satisfied with their cars, even if they have a few warts. They really are the Apple of the automotive world.

jays 7y ago

I think you’re missing the point of what consumers find valuable about Tesla cars. It’s not the body or fancy interiors. The tech is what people want and because of that, cosmetic issues is an ok tradeoff. Of course, as other companies catch up on the Tech side, they’ll need to fix those issues, but they’ve got time.

michaelt 7y ago
It's true that people who have brought Teslas have accepted Tesla's current build quality. But it's the people who haven't brought Teslas where the company's growth will come from! The worry with things like gaps between panels isn't just cosmetic - it's that the process control to achieve "reliably waterproof even after 15 years" is harder than "visibly perfect" There was a time when a sunroof was a liability on a car as they so often developed leaks. People who can remember this time aren't looking to return to it :)
- perl4ever 7y ago
  You seem to think that disposing cars like iPhones is a problem. Sure, it's an environmental problem, and not what people who drive a Corolla for 20 years would prefer, but is it a practical problem for Tesla, or a huge opportunity? You know, look at Apple. They don't have to have everyone be a customer as long as it seems like the best people are and they make ungodly profits from each of them.

gdubs 7y ago

I hear this fit and finish critique of Tesla often. But the whole package of a Tesla is clearly compelling to people, who are willing to pay a luxury price for it. High end Volvo’s are a good example of old-school quality — gorgeous interiors, beautiful trim. But they’re still predominantly internal combustion engine era designs. The height of it from a luxury finish standpoint. But, Tesla’s different. Maybe it’s that petro cars reached a peak, and the only way to really differentiate has come down to “door sound” and body panel alignment measured in nanometers.

falcolas 7y ago
Fit and Finish are exterior indicators of the quality of the entire vehicle. If they don’t care enough to make the panels line up, what assurances do we have that they do care enough to torque all of the bolts correctly, to ensure that the motor is mounted correctly, to ensure that the suspension has been properly calibrated? Also, the condition of the body and the interior matter more to the vehicle’s resale value than the condition of the rest of the car - again they are indicators of the quality and care taken with the rest of the car.
- jayd16 7y ago
  It's a heuristic not a rule.
  - falcolas 7y ago
    Is it? Getting the spacing down so its not noticeable by humans is doing manufacturing and assembly with tolerances measured in whole millimeters. It’s easily the largest possible tolerances allowed within the manufacture and assembly of the car. It should be some of the easiest manufacturing and assembly to be done. If they can’t manage tolerances measured in millimeters, how can they manage manufacturing and assembly tolerances measured in the thousandths of a millimeter?
    - nwallin 7y ago
      > Is it? Yes. Internal combustion engines require intense tolerances. If your cylinder head is 1mm out of spec you're going to have serious problems. But if the wire winding bundle for the electric motor is 5mm out of spec? You'll be fine. The areas in a Tesla where tolerances are actually important- the batteries and PCBs- are subject to completely different engineering practices. Nobody's going to get cross trained from fitting door panels to placing SMCs... which is done by a robot anyway. Do you (literally) kick the tires of a car before you buy it?

dghughes 7y ago

> Look at the doors of the model three. Note that they don't line up. I'm not in the US but people in my region comment how all US vehicles have poor panel quality. I've spoken to paint shop employees and garage mechanics who say the panels of US cars have gaps that are embarrassingly large. In the mind of a buyer that makes you question overall quality. And never buy a white car either they rust because the panels don't get warm enough to drive out moisture.

fiftyfifty 7y ago
It's all relative, in the American southwest nearly every car is white, it's the only color that's livable. Moisture is the least of their concerns there.
psadri 7y ago
I had never heard this about white cars! This must apply to any car maker and maybe other light colors?
- cultofmetatron 7y ago
  anytime I go to a tropical country, almost all the cars are white for precisely this reason
gbronner 7y ago
I've bought two white cars from the southewest and used them in the northeast. One had body panels that were mostly plastic, and lasted 18 years. The other is five years old. Neither shows any sign of rust.

C14L 7y ago

And yet, Tesla costumers constantly poll as the most satisfied of all new car owners. Maybe there are more important things than bumps in the paint? Just guessing, I don't own a car.

sliken 7y ago
Indeed. Great headlights (without paying for the upgrade that much of the competition requires), great safety, great acceleration, great stereo, great nav, great handling, etc.
henrikschroder 7y ago
> And yet, Tesla costumers constantly poll as the most satisfied of all new car owners. I wonder what the demographics are exactly of people who buy Model 3's, is it their first $40k+ vehicle? One thing is abundantly clear, the people who are super excited about "new" tech in Teslas aren't following motor news. People seem to have no clue whatsoever that a lot of the tech you can get in a Tesla exists in other cars as well. Tesla is definitely at the top of the pack, but they're not ahead of the pack. It looks exactly like when Apple announce a "new" feature, and all the Android owners moan and bitch that their phones have had this feature for years, yet all the apple owners are super happy about their new iPhone with this new cool feature that they've never seen before. They "shouldn't" be happy, but due to marketing warping people's perceptions, they are. I suspect something like that might apply to Teslas and the people who buy them. If you've never owned or driven a BMW 3-series or similar, and then switched to a Tesla Model 3, I perfectly understand why you think your Tesla is the best car you've ever had.
- NotSammyHagar 7y ago
  What is the marketing and hype that tesla is doing? they don't have paid ads. The make announcements and blog posts. Meanwhile, every other legacy car company pays millions a year in paid ads, my local dealers must spend 100k plus a year. What car has the web browser like my tesla that lets me use tesla-waze? What car has the apps that tesla does? Sure, there are some cars with a few things. No electric car until this year has the features that my 2012 tesla model s 85 has, including range but also including all the tech. 6 years ahead, some specifics: https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Automobiles/Tesla-teardown-finds-electronics-6-years-ahead-of-Toyota-and-VW2 https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Automobiles/Tesla-teardown-...

maxcan 7y ago

I have an early VIN (004xxx series) model 3 from 2018. One of the earliest non employee deliveries. There are some panel gaps. Judging a Tesla by the panel gaps is reminiscent of the Blackberry execs judging early iPhones by battery life (ironically). The game has changed. Or, in other words: No wireless. Less space than a nomad. Lame. https://slashdot.org/story/01/10/23/1816257/apple-releases-ipod https://slashdot.org/story/01/10/23/1816257/apple-releases-i...

abc_lisper 7y ago
I chuckled, as I remember reading that comment then

rcMgD2BwE72F 7y ago

Less than 0.5% of owners say they are dissatisfied with the exterior appearance of their Tesla (including paint issues)[0]. And quality has continued to improve since then. That is, by far, the most extensive and reliable source we have on this topic but please point to any other study that might say the contrary. [0] https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2019-tesla-model-3-survey/ https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2019-tesla-model-3-survey...

GaryNumanVevo 7y ago
Pretty strong selection bias here, if people were turned away by the lacking build quality they wouldn't be an owner. Also a pretty huge post-hoc rationalization gap here

akmarinov 7y ago

The showroom comments are true for the US cars, but the China made ones are impeccable.

LyndsySimon 7y ago

> Even a budget Kia has better build quality than this. Perhaps ironically, Kia has really upped their game in the past few years, to the point where I'd argue they aren't a good example for this comparison.

krtong 7y ago

Also they asked an engineer at a car manufacturer if they could make a computer. He said "We cannot do it." but I feel like the article omitted him saying something like "That's what Bosch is for."

fnordfnordfnord 7y ago

Don't look at my GMC then. Panel gaps are bad. Paint so thin you can see through it. Rattles and squeaks everywhere. And the electronics are of course garbage.

sliken 7y ago

Did you personally see this? Or are you just repeating what you saw somewhere. I gave my model 3 a close look before I bought it and found none of the mentioned problems.

KaiserPro 7y ago
Yes, tesla showroom, in a major shopping centre in the UK, in december 2019 I was _very_ skeptical of people talking about fit and finish. I was assuming its people trash talking. However, I have now seen it with my own eyes.
rootusrootus 7y ago
There have been some pretty egregious examples posted in the last month or so on r/teslamotors. So it still happens, though I don't know why. Mine is basically fine, though I'd say it isn't quite up to the level of fit and finish as my Camaro.

Tade0 7y ago

I see Teslas daily and while they don't match the German Big Three (European built ones at least) on fit and finish, they aren't that far from your typical imported American car. Nevertheless buyers don't seem to care that much about this.

jayd16 7y ago

>Even a budget Kia has better build quality than this. Is this a recent thing or do you mean the $20k+ as budget in this context? The last budget (cheap manual) Kia I sat in felt like a tin can deathtrap.

natch 7y ago

2018

abc_lisper 7y ago

I was skeptical of Tesla, I didn't buy it when all my friends got it. The car seemed bland inside, devoid of any fashion/art/decor etc. The panel gaps .. ughh.. I test drove it 3 times. Hated it the first time in 2018. Late 2019, I used auto-pilot on 880 and 101. I was sold. There isn't a car available now that can drive on Autopilot with that confidence. I don't let it drive on auto over 30mph, and under it is where it really shines, takes the edge off of bumper to bumper traffic. I bought it. I took delivery on the last day of year, was a little pissed off at Tesla, that they left me with little choice if there were any issues with it. I got home, saw no issues and felt relieved. I now love the car. The Audio is turned on the moment I open the door. The temperature is set to my liking and I glide with one finger press. There are no keys, and my car knows I go to work in the morning, so the directions are set. I get on the freeway, usually bumper to bumper, set autopilot, chill out and listen to radio. I think I am a much happier person now.

lacker 7y ago
It does annoy me that my Mazda takes forever to go from turning the car on to Spotify playing via CarPlay. There’s even a pointless popup warning you not to get distracted that you have to click through.
rootusrootus 7y ago
I live in a rainy area of the country. Periodically my car annoys me to the point of cursing, because the auto wipers are extremely stupid. And because there is only one non-touch/voice control for them, you're kinda stuck. I also wish it would not refuse to unlock about 10% of the time. I may just get the fob.
- abc_lisper 7y ago
  Agreed. The wipers could be better. I haven’t encountered the unlocking problem though. What did Tesla say?
  - rootusrootus 7y ago
    I haven't bothered asking Tesla to explain the unreliable unlocking, since it seems to happen to almost everyone else periodically, and some people quite a lot. I just take the phone out of my pocket and hold the door handle open for a while until it figures it out. After 10 or 15 seconds I usually just take out my wallet and use the RFID. I also started using sentry mode even in my garage, which helps tremendously, because it seems like the root cause is the car going to sleep.

JPKab 7y ago

I'm not a Tesla owner. In fact, I find the company's hype driven marketing annoying. That being said, your info is out of date. The fit and finish isn't an issue anymore.

KaiserPro 7y ago
unless they've changed the stock in the showroom in the last 2 months, then this is a false assertion.
rootusrootus 7y ago
People still have problems. I hang out on r/teslamotors periodically, and I own a recently built Model 3. They have gotten better, but some people have significant issues to this day.

ehnto 7y ago

You can buy a car for one focus or another though. I think it is fair to assume technology is the main focus of buying a Tesla. In the 90s there were a myriad of pragmatic sports cars built, with the focus on performance over fine details. Door gaps has been a funny development, it's important aesthetically of course, but I think unfairly it has become a shorthand for a car's overall build quality.

matt-attack 7y ago
People like tangible, easily understood, and (typically) one-dimensional metrics for assessing product quality. Look at: Mega-pixels for cameras back in the day, and sheet thread-count. Neither of those things is telling the whole story nor are they even directly related to quality. But people latch on to them because they’re a single number, and easy to compare. No one understands what’s actually inside a car and what physically distinguishes a good car from a bad one, so they latch onto the one parameter they can actually see and touch and understand: body panel alignment and paint quality.