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The trailer's actually quite well done! Might watch it when it does come out, seems like it could be interesting or motivational at least :) I work on the back

by sk0g 7y ago

The trailer's actually quite well done! Might watch it when it does come out, seems like it could be interesting or motivational at least :) I work on the backend side of things currently, but from what I've read React is more powerful/ sought after currently, so that's what I'm going to be dedicating my tie to learning, wonder if this documentary might make me reconsider!

nailer 7y ago
Both React and Vue will do what you want. React is more popular, but Vue is generally considered more pleasant to develop for. They're all third wave/ virtual DOM based frameworks (after jQuery (first gen) and the original data-binding frameworks like Backbone (second gen) ). If you want to make an educated bet about where things are going, you might want to learn Svelte, which abandons the virtual DOM approach for a compiler, allowing you to set values with a simple `=` and creating smaller, faster code (Svelte's output doesn't include Svelte, and there's no virtual DOM to keep updated). Svelte's actual coding experience is also pretty similar to Vue - single file components, etc. :)
- runawaybottle 7y ago
  I have no idea why you are getting down voted.
  - sk0g 7y ago
    In about 2 minutes after I read the two replies and checked out a link, the score of my comment dropped by 3, so I'm guessing someone's just mass downvoting everything for... Reasons.
    - Udik 7y ago
      Now that I'm not the downvoted one, I can say this: I'd want to force every downvote to have an explanatory comment (or at least, an upvote on one). If you can't explain why you downvote something, then you probably shouldn't.
      - runawaybottle 7y ago
        For what it’s worth, I got down voted for asking ‘Why did OP get down voted?’. I agree, explain yourself.
        nailer 7y ago
        HN guidelines are not to discuss downvotes. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
  - pier25 7y ago
    I didn't downvote, but I'd say it's because of the statement that "Vue is generally considered more pleasant to develop for" which seems totally anecdotal and subjective.
    - Semaphor 7y ago
      fwiw, the so 2019 survey had react and vue almost even with a slight react lead in loved, dreaded and wanted each: https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2019#technology-_-most-loved-dreaded-and-wanted-web-frameworks https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2019#technology-_-...
- sk0g 7y ago
  I've heard of Svelte, but didn't understand what set it apart from the others, so thanks for the pointer! Do you think it will gain much traction, or will there likely be another one inspired by it, but driven by a megacorp that pushes it out of the picture? My work has a react front end, not sure if there's lots of transferrable skills between the two. For one thing I'll have to learn basic web stuff like CSS, HTML and all, and that will transfer, at least.
  - nailer 7y ago
    Did Vue have a megacorp behind it? Svelte was developed by Rich Harris, who works at the NY Times. Apple is hiring Svelte developers https://twitter.com/mansur_ashraf/status/1204542852581273600?s=20 https://twitter.com/mansur_ashraf/status/1204542852581273600.... I personally think it will be OK. :)
    - 411111111111111 7y ago
      > Did Vue have a megacorp behind it? Yes, several actually. They are Chinese though, not American, so you might not know them as well.
  - tashoecraft 7y ago
    I honestly don’t think svelte will ever become more than a niche framework/library, but the ideas it pushes will become mainstream.
- pier25 7y ago
  > but Vue is generally considered more pleasant to develop for If you live in the Vue bubble then of course you will get favorable opinions. I've been using both React and Vue for a couple of years and I don't think "Vue is generally considered more pleasant". Some people prefer one, some people prefer the other.
  - nailer 7y ago
    > If you live in the Vue bubble then of course you will get favorable opinions. I'm not in the Vue community. When 'React vs Vue' was happening back in 2015 I was using a completely separate virtual DOM library (Ractive) so I'm relatively unbiased. I've just been coding, writing, and speaking about JS for a decade and I know many people who've tried both. They might be wrong, but React having a steeper learning curve (JSX is harder to pick up than SFC), a more variable developer experience (depending on state management libraries used) and more complexity than Vue is definitely the common opinion.
    - pier25 7y ago
      > (Ractive) so I'm relatively unbiased Vue was heavily inspired by Ractive though. (btw I didn't downvote you) Edit: > but React having a steeper learning curve (JSX is harder to pick up than SFC) I don't know. Templates might be easier for beginners than JSX but OTOH with Vue you need to learn a lot of abstractions (eg: watchers, reactivity is not obvious, etc). I think the complexity of getting started with React is that you need to add more third party libraries plus configuring your dev tools with Webpack/Babel/etc. CRA solves that for you but it's a huge black box if you don't know what you are doing. I will agree that with Vue you can start directly with script tags a la jQuery and that is great for a lot of projects and beginner devs.
      - wolco 7y ago
        The complexity comes from small things. Not being able to use html closes a lot of doors. Have you ever wanted to just copy and paste html into a template script tag and have it render? With react you need to convert that first.. I want to grab a json list and display it in a li tag. With vue I fetch, assign to a variable and in the template v-bind it. With react I would write another component for the li maybe do a foreach. Watchers existed in jQuery. Not sure they are so difficult one would choose react most people would just avoid them.
- s_y_n_t_a_x 7y ago
  > React is more popular, but Vue is generally considered more pleasant to develop for. Bold statement. To me, more pleasant development is having everything typed. I couldn't imagine not having my props, styles, and state protected.
yhoiseth 7y ago
csallen did a great interview with Evan You on his podcast where You explains very well why there's room for both React and Vue: https://www.indiehackers.com/podcast/078-evan-you-of-vue https://www.indiehackers.com/podcast/078-evan-you-of-vue
- sk0g 7y ago
  Thank you, having trouble falling asleep so I'm putting it on now :) The premise of the podcast is quite interesting. If you follow it, do you have any episodes you'd recommend in particular?
  - yhoiseth 7y ago
    I haven't listened to that many, but I can recall liking these: 1. https://www.indiehackers.com/podcast/137-taylor-otwell-of-laravel https://www.indiehackers.com/podcast/137-taylor-otwell-of-la... 2. https://www.indiehackers.com/podcast/131-tyler-tringas-of-earnest-capital https://www.indiehackers.com/podcast/131-tyler-tringas-of-ea... 3. https://www.indiehackers.com/podcast/086-lynne-tye-of-key-values https://www.indiehackers.com/podcast/086-lynne-tye-of-key-va...
dpau 7y ago
after much consideration i just recommended vue to a friend who is in a similar situation as yourself. apart from technical aspects, also consider that although there are currently more react jobs, there are also hordes of developers and bootcamp grads going into the react world, and it may be more difficult to differentiate yourself.
pier25 7y ago
> React is more powerful/ sought after currently It's just different, not better. Maybe you will prefer one over the other but that is a very subjective thing. I've been using both for 4-5 years and I much prefer other libraries these days like Inferno, Mithril, Preact, or Svelte.
- reflectiv 7y ago
  > I've been using both for 4-5 years and I much prefer other libraries these days like Inferno, Mithril, Preact, or Svelte. As a lover of React, and not having used the others you mentioned here...what is it about them you like over React?
  - pier25 7y ago
    All of those are very different among them so it's difficult to say but generally speaking because all are faster and more light weight. Mithril gives you components + vdom + router + http client in 10kB gzipped. Performance is faster than React + Redux. I think it's the most zen and elegant of all options since your state is basically vanilla JS but that's very subjective. Inferno and Preact are very React-y. Inferno is much much faster than React. Preact is much much smaller than React. With both you can add a compat layer to use React libraries. Svelte is another beast altogether. Instead of a vdom it compiles your code to super efficient impertive DOM manipulation code which produces extremely small and fast apps. I don't love the ergonomics but the results are super impressive. See these benchmarks for my claims about size and speed: https://krausest.github.io/js-framework-benchmark/current.html https://krausest.github.io/js-framework-benchmark/current.ht...
    - ng12 7y ago
      Why do you care about optimizing perf so much? React and even Angular are fast enough that you should never need to worry about any sort of perf hacking, and I would argue that if perf is the number-one concern for your use case you shouldn't be using a framework at all. The primary thing I care about when comparing frameworks is developer productivity. Bundle size is a moderate concern, saving 50-100ms to re-render a giant table doesn't even make the list.
wolco 7y ago
That's the hype. Remember react is in it's own ecosystem with their own language/acceptable approaches. The framework will allow you to do more than the community so you need to align how you write with what is acceptable. Last year the might mean classes this year hooks. React is more of a religion or a way of life compared to other frameworks. Because of this there is a moat around react if you are looking to be hired. You need to stay upto date and involve yourself with the community. You can easily dip your toe in react and the coding is simple. The ecosystem is where the complexity lives and this is as important to understand/accept if you plan on moving into it. Vue is more like jQuery when it came out. It immediately makes sense with what you have been doing and allows you to use as much or as little as you want. I think react is great for someone who knows nothing (it provides a community / approach) or for someone who knows too much (those who pushed angularjs too far and got burned) but for the masses in the middle it demands you forget much of what you know works to accept this new way of life. It's too much for many. This is where Vue shines, it allows you to build in whatever way you want which allows you to leverage what you already know.
- ng12 7y ago
  That's a really bizarre way of describing the most popular framework. If it was as cult-ish as you describe I don't think that would be the case. Also I really think you're overselling the differences between React and Vue. I generally think of them as interchangeable.
  - wolco 7y ago
    Your living in a react mindset. They are not interchangeable unless you do things the react way. Drop one html tag like < <div class="main"> in react and it breaks. Being popular has no bearing on cult-ish status. Popular places like Starbucks can be described that way where a special language is required to order a cup of coffee.
    - ng12 7y ago
      > Drop one html tag like <div class="main"> in react and it breaks. Can you explain? That is entirely valid JSX and you should be able to drop it in any React component.
root_axis 7y ago
Exclaim that you've read that react is more powerful and desired in a vue thread... perfect kindling for a flame war lol.

by sk0g 7y ago

nailer 7y ago

Both React and Vue will do what you want. React is more popular, but Vue is generally considered more pleasant to develop for. They're all third wave/ virtual DOM based frameworks (after jQuery (first gen) and the original data-binding frameworks like Backbone (second gen) ). If you want to make an educated bet about where things are going, you might want to learn Svelte, which abandons the virtual DOM approach for a compiler, allowing you to set values with a simple `=` and creating smaller, faster code (Svelte's output doesn't include Svelte, and there's no virtual DOM to keep updated). Svelte's actual coding experience is also pretty similar to Vue - single file components, etc. :)

runawaybottle 7y ago
I have no idea why you are getting down voted.
- sk0g 7y ago
  In about 2 minutes after I read the two replies and checked out a link, the score of my comment dropped by 3, so I'm guessing someone's just mass downvoting everything for... Reasons.
  - Udik 7y ago
    Now that I'm not the downvoted one, I can say this: I'd want to force every downvote to have an explanatory comment (or at least, an upvote on one). If you can't explain why you downvote something, then you probably shouldn't.
    - runawaybottle 7y ago
      For what it’s worth, I got down voted for asking ‘Why did OP get down voted?’. I agree, explain yourself.
      - nailer 7y ago
        HN guidelines are not to discuss downvotes. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- pier25 7y ago
  I didn't downvote, but I'd say it's because of the statement that "Vue is generally considered more pleasant to develop for" which seems totally anecdotal and subjective.
  - Semaphor 7y ago
    fwiw, the so 2019 survey had react and vue almost even with a slight react lead in loved, dreaded and wanted each: https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2019#technology-_-most-loved-dreaded-and-wanted-web-frameworks https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2019#technology-_-...
sk0g 7y ago
I've heard of Svelte, but didn't understand what set it apart from the others, so thanks for the pointer! Do you think it will gain much traction, or will there likely be another one inspired by it, but driven by a megacorp that pushes it out of the picture? My work has a react front end, not sure if there's lots of transferrable skills between the two. For one thing I'll have to learn basic web stuff like CSS, HTML and all, and that will transfer, at least.
- nailer 7y ago
  Did Vue have a megacorp behind it? Svelte was developed by Rich Harris, who works at the NY Times. Apple is hiring Svelte developers https://twitter.com/mansur_ashraf/status/1204542852581273600?s=20 https://twitter.com/mansur_ashraf/status/1204542852581273600.... I personally think it will be OK. :)
  - 411111111111111 7y ago
    > Did Vue have a megacorp behind it? Yes, several actually. They are Chinese though, not American, so you might not know them as well.
- tashoecraft 7y ago
  I honestly don’t think svelte will ever become more than a niche framework/library, but the ideas it pushes will become mainstream.
pier25 7y ago
> but Vue is generally considered more pleasant to develop for If you live in the Vue bubble then of course you will get favorable opinions. I've been using both React and Vue for a couple of years and I don't think "Vue is generally considered more pleasant". Some people prefer one, some people prefer the other.
- nailer 7y ago
  > If you live in the Vue bubble then of course you will get favorable opinions. I'm not in the Vue community. When 'React vs Vue' was happening back in 2015 I was using a completely separate virtual DOM library (Ractive) so I'm relatively unbiased. I've just been coding, writing, and speaking about JS for a decade and I know many people who've tried both. They might be wrong, but React having a steeper learning curve (JSX is harder to pick up than SFC), a more variable developer experience (depending on state management libraries used) and more complexity than Vue is definitely the common opinion.
  - pier25 7y ago
    > (Ractive) so I'm relatively unbiased Vue was heavily inspired by Ractive though. (btw I didn't downvote you) Edit: > but React having a steeper learning curve (JSX is harder to pick up than SFC) I don't know. Templates might be easier for beginners than JSX but OTOH with Vue you need to learn a lot of abstractions (eg: watchers, reactivity is not obvious, etc). I think the complexity of getting started with React is that you need to add more third party libraries plus configuring your dev tools with Webpack/Babel/etc. CRA solves that for you but it's a huge black box if you don't know what you are doing. I will agree that with Vue you can start directly with script tags a la jQuery and that is great for a lot of projects and beginner devs.
    - wolco 7y ago
      The complexity comes from small things. Not being able to use html closes a lot of doors. Have you ever wanted to just copy and paste html into a template script tag and have it render? With react you need to convert that first.. I want to grab a json list and display it in a li tag. With vue I fetch, assign to a variable and in the template v-bind it. With react I would write another component for the li maybe do a foreach. Watchers existed in jQuery. Not sure they are so difficult one would choose react most people would just avoid them.
s_y_n_t_a_x 7y ago
> React is more popular, but Vue is generally considered more pleasant to develop for. Bold statement. To me, more pleasant development is having everything typed. I couldn't imagine not having my props, styles, and state protected.

yhoiseth 7y ago

csallen did a great interview with Evan You on his podcast where You explains very well why there's room for both React and Vue: https://www.indiehackers.com/podcast/078-evan-you-of-vue https://www.indiehackers.com/podcast/078-evan-you-of-vue

sk0g 7y ago
Thank you, having trouble falling asleep so I'm putting it on now :) The premise of the podcast is quite interesting. If you follow it, do you have any episodes you'd recommend in particular?
- yhoiseth 7y ago
  I haven't listened to that many, but I can recall liking these: 1. https://www.indiehackers.com/podcast/137-taylor-otwell-of-laravel https://www.indiehackers.com/podcast/137-taylor-otwell-of-la... 2. https://www.indiehackers.com/podcast/131-tyler-tringas-of-earnest-capital https://www.indiehackers.com/podcast/131-tyler-tringas-of-ea... 3. https://www.indiehackers.com/podcast/086-lynne-tye-of-key-values https://www.indiehackers.com/podcast/086-lynne-tye-of-key-va...

dpau 7y ago

after much consideration i just recommended vue to a friend who is in a similar situation as yourself. apart from technical aspects, also consider that although there are currently more react jobs, there are also hordes of developers and bootcamp grads going into the react world, and it may be more difficult to differentiate yourself.

pier25 7y ago

> React is more powerful/ sought after currently It's just different, not better. Maybe you will prefer one over the other but that is a very subjective thing. I've been using both for 4-5 years and I much prefer other libraries these days like Inferno, Mithril, Preact, or Svelte.

reflectiv 7y ago
> I've been using both for 4-5 years and I much prefer other libraries these days like Inferno, Mithril, Preact, or Svelte. As a lover of React, and not having used the others you mentioned here...what is it about them you like over React?
- pier25 7y ago
  All of those are very different among them so it's difficult to say but generally speaking because all are faster and more light weight. Mithril gives you components + vdom + router + http client in 10kB gzipped. Performance is faster than React + Redux. I think it's the most zen and elegant of all options since your state is basically vanilla JS but that's very subjective. Inferno and Preact are very React-y. Inferno is much much faster than React. Preact is much much smaller than React. With both you can add a compat layer to use React libraries. Svelte is another beast altogether. Instead of a vdom it compiles your code to super efficient impertive DOM manipulation code which produces extremely small and fast apps. I don't love the ergonomics but the results are super impressive. See these benchmarks for my claims about size and speed: https://krausest.github.io/js-framework-benchmark/current.html https://krausest.github.io/js-framework-benchmark/current.ht...
  - ng12 7y ago
    Why do you care about optimizing perf so much? React and even Angular are fast enough that you should never need to worry about any sort of perf hacking, and I would argue that if perf is the number-one concern for your use case you shouldn't be using a framework at all. The primary thing I care about when comparing frameworks is developer productivity. Bundle size is a moderate concern, saving 50-100ms to re-render a giant table doesn't even make the list.

wolco 7y ago

That's the hype. Remember react is in it's own ecosystem with their own language/acceptable approaches. The framework will allow you to do more than the community so you need to align how you write with what is acceptable. Last year the might mean classes this year hooks. React is more of a religion or a way of life compared to other frameworks. Because of this there is a moat around react if you are looking to be hired. You need to stay upto date and involve yourself with the community. You can easily dip your toe in react and the coding is simple. The ecosystem is where the complexity lives and this is as important to understand/accept if you plan on moving into it. Vue is more like jQuery when it came out. It immediately makes sense with what you have been doing and allows you to use as much or as little as you want. I think react is great for someone who knows nothing (it provides a community / approach) or for someone who knows too much (those who pushed angularjs too far and got burned) but for the masses in the middle it demands you forget much of what you know works to accept this new way of life. It's too much for many. This is where Vue shines, it allows you to build in whatever way you want which allows you to leverage what you already know.

ng12 7y ago
That's a really bizarre way of describing the most popular framework. If it was as cult-ish as you describe I don't think that would be the case. Also I really think you're overselling the differences between React and Vue. I generally think of them as interchangeable.
- wolco 7y ago
  Your living in a react mindset. They are not interchangeable unless you do things the react way. Drop one html tag like < <div class="main"> in react and it breaks. Being popular has no bearing on cult-ish status. Popular places like Starbucks can be described that way where a special language is required to order a cup of coffee.
  - ng12 7y ago
    > Drop one html tag like <div class="main"> in react and it breaks. Can you explain? That is entirely valid JSX and you should be able to drop it in any React component.

root_axis 7y ago

Exclaim that you've read that react is more powerful and desired in a vue thread... perfect kindling for a flame war lol.