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Why I stopped travelling to the US and largely stopped doing business in the US
- danssig 16y agoI wonder how much longer it will take before americans get enough to take a stand about this. I suppose it would never reach critical mass with flying because not enough americans are flying to care, which is why I can't wait for TSA to follow through with their plan to set up their nonsense at bus stops and subways.
- jbm 16y agoWhen the nonsense is done at limo stands and private jets, you will see a change. No politician is deaf to the voices of "the people", but it's a lot easier to get into speaking range when you can afford a professional lobby.
- patio11 16y agoIt takes one phone call to speak to someone at your Congresscritter's office about this. They really do listen and, occasionally, even act on things which generate heat from constituents (ask any Republican who flipped on immigration circa 2007-2008). If you feel strongly about it, make the freaking call. (Or, better, write an honest-to-God on-dead-tree letter.)
- tallanvor 16y agoI actually HAVE written to my senators about this issue, unfortunately I didn't even get the courtesy of a form letter in response - and they're both Democrats. I didn't bother writing to my rep since he's a Republican.
- johnb 16y agoPart of it is the motivation to return home. I'm Australian, and we've got a fairly intensive customs procedure, but I could care less, I'm an hour or less away from home now. Visting America was a different story though: I'm getting fingerprinted, and people are jumping queues, and the security is crazy... and all I'm thinking is "Why did I bother?" Waiting for americans to care enough about the discomfort of vistors (relative to motivation to be there) might take a while.
- rdouble 16y agoI'm Australian, and we've got a fairly intensive customs procedure Really? I brought a bunch of weird looking folding bike parts in a taped together laundry bag and got waved right though.
- dtegart 16y agoThey are mostly looking for foodstuffs, or anything that can introduce an agricultural or environmental pest.
- brc 16y agoHe means quarantine. If you had an open packet of oreos and some muddy boots, you'd still be there now.
- wyclif 16y agoWhat is up with the Aussies and quarantine? Going from the US to SE Asia, you fill out a little slip declaring if you're carrying snails or orchids, and if you say you are not, you sail right through. No worries!
- buro9 16y agoMost Americans aren't seeing this stuff. When I was married and my American wife got to join me in the queue I was in, and had to go through the same process that I went through. Well she was incredulous that she was being treated that way. Until Americans actually experience this, nothing will be done about it. I've considered that enough to think that a better way to approach it is to subject people to the kind of security that they subject others to. So that if Americans want to visit other countries that they are finger-printed, interrogated, X-Ray'd, delayed and otherwise harassed. Then when they complain point out that what is being done to them is a reflection of what they do to others, that is the only thing I can imagine might make them consider changing their ways... and I really am not living in the kind of world where I think this is achievable since European border control isn't going to start implementing this stuff on a per nationality basis. So it's not as if I really think this is feasible. As I've pointed out in the past, I also no longer go to the USA or do business there. When I am forced to have face-to-face meetings with Americans, I force the venue to be in Canada at a location I can get a flight to that doesn't require going via the USA (tends to be Toronto as direct flights from London are cheap and frequent). This works for me to the point that I no longer think about it until it appears like this on a forum and I remember that I don't go to the USA anymore... it's become subconscious. I just don't go to the USA because of the experience of doing so (not limited to border alone, but border is the initial impression and the worst).
- GFischer 16y ago"if Americans want to visit other countries that they are finger-printed, interrogated, X-Ray'd, delayed and otherwise harassed." That's exactly what Brazil is doing and mentioned elsewhere in the comments: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2234963 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2234963
- Lewisham 16y agoMost Americans aren't seeing this stuff. You mean most foreign-travelling Americans, who are a minority in comparison to the Americans that don't have a passport, as only 37% hold one [1]. Domestic flights are way less of a pain than international, if only because you don't have to go through Customs. [1]: http://www.theexpeditioner.com/2010/02/17/how-many-americans-have-a-passport-2/ http://www.theexpeditioner.com/2010/02/17/how-many-americans... EDIT: My American wife (I'm British) was the same way. I'm in the process of applying for a Green Card, which means we'll have to go to an INS office and both of us get our fingerprints taken. "Why the hell do they need my fingerprints? There's no way I'm giving them my fingerprints!" "Honey, they take my prints every time I come to the US."
- gaius 16y agoTry Sea-Tac airport. 20 lanes at the border, 17 reserved for American citizens, of whom there are probably about 20 on a 400-seater plane. I've traveled all over the world, US borders are the most unpleasant. I'v had border guards in FSRs point guns at me but hey, those guys are just doing their jobs. In the US they go out of their way to be rude, lazy, incompetent and just plain obnoxious.
- jasonkester 16y agoOr PDX, where Immigrations was so hostile that demand dropped to zero on direct flights from Asia and the airlines had to pull the routes. Evidently it was better to simply book your flight to SEA, wait for those 3 lanes, then catch a separate flight south to avoid the pain and suffering at the hands of the PDX border guards.
- steveklabnik 16y agoUgh, PDX. They treat Americans like crap on flights back from Asia, too. At least that was my one time leaving the country... http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1682004 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1682004
- miked 16y agoI'v had border guards in FSRs point guns at me but hey, those guys are just doing their jobs. No one should ever, EVER, point a gun at someone unless they are prepared to shoot.
- gaius 16y agoWhen a man with a swarthy complexion and a huge beard wearing faded camo gear shows up at your border and shuffles through a selection of passports before deciding which one to try, then hands you one that looks nothing like him, you can be a little suspicious ;-) Then again at another FSR border I was extremely drunk and insisting to the guard that despite what my passport says I was in fact Dutch and they just rolled their eyes and waved me through... I later bought a passport in that same country.
- tallanvor 16y agoBasically that's the problem. It's estimated that there are somewhere between 3-7 million non-military Americans living overseas, but that's less than 3% of the population. If the US had senators and representatives dedicated to those people, we would have some clout, but because we still have to have "residency" in a specific state, we aren't really large enough to have much political clout. Unfortunately most of the people who live in the US really don't understand the bullshit treatment that people get when entering the country. --It's not as bad for US citizens, but I still get questioned more coming into the US than any other country I've visited.
- iwwr 16y agoIt's not merely inconvenience at the border, but travel has become cost ineffective to him. An expensive piece of kit lost that meant that I basically didn't make any money that month. and After 9/11 everyone is utterly paranoid and everyone from security guards to police, and even random passers-by, have hassled me. Claiming that I am breaking the law (I am not) or demanding I explain why I am taking pictures.
- tintin 16y ago"I usually have to spend a lot of time being interrogated for my lack of a huge suitcase" he is bothered at the border. He is talking about the whole experience not only about the cost.
- deleted 16y ago[deleted]
- wisty 16y agoNegativeK Insurance is for things that could destroy you if you didn't have it. Otherwise, by the law of averages, it's a waste of money. Unfortunately, in the US, lots of things can destroy you: Lawsuits from car accidents, medical issues, not having a car, et cetera. Nice comment.
- jrockway 16y agoBy the law of averages, all insurance is a waste of money. Insurance companies make money. They do this by collecting more fees than they pay out. In aggregate, they win and you lose. The real question to ask is, "can I afford this insurance" and "is it worth it to me". If you buy a $250 mp3 player and the "insurance" is $300 and lasts for 6 months, it's a waste of money, because you aren't going to break your mp3 player twice in 6 months. But if it's $20 to insure your $10,000 of camera equipment which has a replacement cost equal to a month of income, then you should probably go for it. It's a bad deal, but $20 is the cost of a few beers, which is also a bad deal. Anyway, someone makes money on every transaction. That doesn't necessarily mean you shouldn't be a party to that transaction.
- wisty 16y agoNo, medical insurance isn't a waste, because the cost of not having it can be extremely high, not just in dollar terms. Happiness (100% x losing $1000 + 1% x having a free necessary operation) > Happiness (1% x not being able to afford a necessary operation).
- bugsy 16y agoIn the US routine medical care costs less than the cost of insurance. When you get a serious illness like cancer, the insurance company rescinds your policy and then you become uninsurable and die. Insurance does cover the odd accident though, but they will fight tooth and nail over whether you need therapy to learn to walk again.
- thailandstartup 16y agoInsuring against small losses is a waste of money. You've got to factor in the margin of the insurance company, but also the time and expense of claiming, keeping records, reading insurance terms, the potential for the claim not to be honoured etc. Better to self-insure - put that money aside into a fund and use that fund to cover your loses for small amounts. For large losses that you may not have the capacity to cover, it is usually sensible. Where to draw the line depends on how deep your pockets are.
- jranck 16y ago"He who sacrifices freedom for security deserves neither." Unfortunately I don't see this changing any time soon with the TSA unionizing.
- paraschopra 16y agoI will tell another personal experience. I am based out of India and have been invited to speak at a conference in San Francisco. I applied for a business visa and was denied that visa because apparently I am young (23) and they have not heard about my startup (it is of course not an IT service giant like Infosys, TCS or Wipro) or conference (it's about A/B testing). Mind you: my startup is doing quite well financially and we pay regular taxes (had all relevant documents to prove it). Getting a simple business visa for US is so hard that from multiple sources I heard that founders of a lot of VC funded startups (with more than million $ in bank) in India many times don't get a US visa if they need to setup a sales team there or be there for some business purpose. Is doing business in US for foreign startups really this hard or I am an outlier? It's, of course, frustrating and I don't know what to do about it.
- kingsley_20 16y agoYou're just too much of a flight risk - they see you as having too little at stake in India. I've had some friends have similar issues (http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=851287 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=851287). I myself returned to India after 8 years in the states partly because it was practically impossible to start my own business without a green card, aka 4 years of indentured servitude. For future reference: Try to show assets you own (real estate, homes etc) that incentivize your return; Bring literature about your conference, maybe ads etc (they need to see that its purpose is not an immigration scam); if you're married or have kids, that helps a great deal. Good luck!
- paraschopra 16y agoThanks for your comment. I brought a lot of documents with me during visa interview but didn't they see a single document. It's true I am unmarried but getting married just to get a US visa is too much to ask for :)
- hippich 16y agoI am from Belarus. When I tried to apply for business visa to visit company doing me an offer, i was also denied. I had bunch of documents with me with assests, etc, but officer just took a look at application and refused issue of visa. So probably, from countries like mine if you are young and do not have kids, it's quite hard to get visa.
- die_sekte 16y agoAnybody willing to share how Schengen/EU borders are for foreigners?
- eoghan 16y agoWhat exactly would you like to know? I've traveled to about 10 European countries. I've never been photographed, had my fingerprints taken, been interrogated about my intentions. But every time I visit the US, all of these things happen. I should note that I'm a European Union (EU) citizen which gives me the right to travel freely between countries in the EU. But my American friends have only ever been hassled when they broke the conditions of their holiday visas (e.g. overstayed their 90 days).
- die_sekte 16y agoWell, I am an EU/Schengen citizen, and I would like to know what non-EU, non-Schengen citizens experience at the EU/Schengen borders.
- psykotic 16y agoMy live-in partner went home with me to Denmark for Christmas. The border crossing in Copenhagen Airport was pleasant and completely without incident. What was maddening was the process of applying for a visitor's visa. In addition to forms, it required around 25 pages of auxiliary documentation, including her most recent pay-slip; a print-out of her bank balance on the day of submission; a letter addressed to the embassy from her employer attesting to her position, her monthly salary and her length of employment; a travel insurance policy covering the length of the stay; a round-trip plane ticket; a letter of several pages from me, accompanied by evidence such as photos, describing how and when we first met, when I most recently met her, the total amount of time we have spent together face to face, etc. That was for a two-week stay over the holidays. Fun.
- limmeau 16y agoWhat countries are you originally from?
- felipe 16y ago> I've been to Russia before the cold war ended. I've been all over the middle east. I've been to China. I've travelled all over Europe. I've been to Cuba and I've been to Argentina, Brazil, Uruguay, Nicaragua. What all of these places have in common is that going there was a far more pleasant experience than going to the US. Oh, c'mon, this sounds very over-the-top. My experience is that TSA and USCIS (formerly INS) are very professional and follow a strict protocol. The protocol may be unfair or not, but that's the protocol, not the professional's fault. In places like Brazil your entire trip is at the hands of chance: Most times you get a nice officer, but sometimes not. For example: After an incident involving an American in Brazil [1], all Americans were out of a sudden required by the Brazilian authorities to get pictures taken at the Brazilian customs. The situation got so ridiculous, that at some point the airports ended up with 3 lines: "Brazilian Citizens", "Foreigners", and "Americans". In other words, Americans were singled-out from the rest of the world. Would the OP describe that as a "pleasant experience"??? I have had somewhat bad experiences in the US too, but that's not even close to the kind of stuff I (or close family members and friends) went through in Brazil, or as a Brazilian in Europe. In the US I never had any trouble, and officers always acted professionally. And I highly doubt this person would get compensated in any one of these countries. [1] http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/americas/01/14/finger.gesture.reut/index.html http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/americas/01/14/finger.gesture.... Disclaimer: I am a Brazilian naturalized American.
- die_sekte 16y agoBrazil isn't part of the Visa Waiver program and felt that its citizens were being treated unreasonably. Thus, they began being rude to Americans. (IIRC) Kind of an asshole move, but highly entertaining to watch from the outside.
- ovi256 16y agoBrazil has a well-known tit-for-tat policy in foreign matters. They will apply to a country's citizens whatever policy that country applies to Brazilians. So Americans were singled out because they singled out Brazilians. It's called having balls.
- ErrantX 16y agoI have to admit, as difficult as it is, he makes a good point here. I'm nowhere near as well travelled, but we do a lot of work in the middle east (some of the nastier parts too), which is a place you would imagine a white westerner would count seriously against you. But, frankly, I've never felt safer or more welcomed in my life (apart from the odd dicey moment). OK, the US is not terrible, unsafe or specifically unfriendly. But there are little things; some cities I just didn't feel overly welcome because I wasn't American. I'm in my mid twenties and ordering a beer with a meal got me some highly suspicious looks! Numerous times I have been questioned by police; for being sat at a bus depot with a rucksack (they made me miss a bus and were utterly unapologetic, grr), for being stood on a street waiting for my pickup (for about 20 minutes.. I think someone had actually called them) etc. Don't get me wrong; I've met loads of really awesome, friendly and welcoming Americans. And mostly it is fine. But more than any other place I have been to you get treated with suspicion.
- rdouble 16y agoAmericans can be pretty suspicious of outsiders even if the outsiders are fellow Americans. Where I grew up, walking around town (instead of driving) or standing at the bus station meant you were at best are some sort of vaguely criminal transient.
- toadi 16y agoSounds like the start of Rambo I movie ;)
- arethuza 16y agoOne of the more surreal conversations I've had while entering the US was one guy who wanted to know why I've been to Turkey/Egypt/Morocco so many times - he just seemed to refuse to believe me when I said that they are really nice places to go on holiday and that they are very common holiday destinations for Europeans. I actually had to explain what it is that I like about them! Note - I'm from the UK. [Edit: Note that I really enjoy visiting the US - the country is great, its just that the experience of getting in can be a bit odd, although I have to admit that the last few times were all perfectly pleasant].
- Maro 16y agoIt must be great to be able to afford to stop doing business in the US.
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- fedd 16y agocomments burn!!! http://www.reddit.com/r/reddit.com/comments/fngfo/why_i_stopped_travelling_to_the_us_and_i_largely/c1h8l08 http://www.reddit.com/r/reddit.com/comments/fngfo/why_i_stop... ================================= I switched flights in Dubai once. I was on my way back from Asia, travelling in the full backbacker gear. I had ripped shorts, a dirty tank top, an ugly hat, and flip flops. I carried a huge backpack as well as a guitar and an ukulele. When I put the guitar through the security scanner thingy, the guard stationed there ran it through several times and looked at the screen with suspicion. Then he let the guitar through and started eyeballing me real bad. I got scared shitless as I figured I might have forgotten a bag of weed or so in the guitar case (Dubai is notorious for their harsh drug laws) and I definitely had THC in the system. After what probably was just five seconds but felt like ages, the guard asked me "what is that?" and pointed to the guitar. "A guitar", I said. "Are you sure?" "Yes." "Can play Hotel California?" "Yes." "Okay, you can go." pants6000 "Okay, you can go." But you can never leave! bawng I asked the guard to bring me some wine. greggerypeccary He said, "We haven't had that spirit here since nine.... ...eleven."
- sambeau 16y agoAs a British person I find it sad (and slightly scary) that the best advice given to him is to start carrying a gun.
- deleted 16y ago[deleted]
- VMG 16y agoDoes he really have to own the gun or does he just have to declare his camera as a gun?
- darklajid 16y agoThis. The GP got it wrong. The suggestion was to use something "sortof" gun-like to declare that the case contains a weapon, so that the TSA has to list (and treat) according to the rules for these things. The one giving the advice said that he has a "starter pistol", which google explained as a gun that you use to start a race etc.. Not a real weapon. Others suggested a flare pistol (Dangerous? Sure. But not a 'weapon', but more a tool). I find it sad that these workarounds seem to help and that they are deemed necessary. But "bring a gun" is not what they are suggesting here.
- sambeau 16y agohttp://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2006/09/expensive_camer.html http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2006/09/expensive_came... The article referenced, which I read, had this: "Then someone has the brilliant suggestion of putting a firearm in your camera-equipment case" Matt Brandon (the blogger referenced) had the genius move of using a starter pistol rather than a handgun. However, it is still sad and slightly scary to me that the solution to protecting your property during a flight is to pack it with a weapon or something that looks like weapon.
- gritzko 16y agoI am a Russian citizen living in EU. I generally avoid trips to US. BTW, me and some of my colleagues, postdocs or PhD students, had to go through the infamous TAL (technology alert list) checks. What it practically means: 1) you are a citizen of some US "enemy" country, like xUSSR, China, Brazil or, God forbid, Iran 2) you have a PhD in any engineering discipline (true for architects, computer scientists, chemists, physicists, etc) or you work towards your PhD 3) you are going to a conference in US Then they will do a mock background check for long enough to grant you a visa one day after the conference ends.
- ilitirit 16y agoI refuse to travel to the US because of how much hassle is involved. I don't starting my trips off on a sour note. The UK is headed this way as well, mind you.
- smiler 16y agoRefuse? Refuse? You can fly to the US - some 4000 miles away in 7.5 hrs for the East Coast and 11 hours for the West coast. You then may have a little bit of a wait at immigration (or not as the case may be). I've gone through in 5 minutes and one time it was 45 minutes. Seeing as you state you're in the UK, you also eligible for the VWP which means you can travel to the US whenever you like. Just consider what it was like to travel before the invention of the airplane, or the steam ship. Please appreciate that you live in a time when travelling the world is very very easy. And please watch http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8r1CZTLk-Gk http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8r1CZTLk-Gk
- ilitirit 16y agoI'm not in the UK, you just assumed that. I just said the UK is heading the same way. You have to undergo racial profiling, in your own country when applying for a visa for both the US and UK, and then you're subjected to "random" searches and interviews when you land there. This has happened on several occasions to a friend of mine. In fact, soon after 9/11 everyone in his family's US visas were mysteriously cancelled, presumably because his surname is "Hoosein". His sister had to leave the US where she had been working for years and reapply for another visa. She has to do this every year now. Last month, my friend's employer (Sky News) had to supply special documents to the UK government to prove that he was actually who he said he was, and even then they wouldn't give him a visa. We had to get in touch with the local foreign minister to get him a visa. The last time he was in the UK, he was detained for several hours (and nearly arrested without warrant under the Terrorist Act) because he dozed off in front of the Israeli check-in counter. These aren't isolated incidents. So yes, I refuse.
- frevd 16y agoThere is also a really interesting (scarifying-wise) discussion about apathy, existentialism and generally missing purpose in America's daily life, in the later comments to check out (scroll down 1/3, i.e. a mile).
- I_get_stopped 16y agoI am Indian and not muslim but "unfortunate" to have been born in the middle east. Everytime I visit the US, I have an intensive check, basically running all my finger prints through an extensive check. I have to swear what I saw is true (which I find awkward, raising my palm and repeating what they say). The officers take my wallet, go through all my credit cards, docs, etc. I have to wait for about 2 hours. I once missed my connection flight because of the long wait. And what is crazier is that the same procedure repeats when I leave the US.
- edw519 16y agoeveryone is utterly paranoid Everyone? I have bit my tongue for a long time about this great community's slipping quality, but honestly, how does shit like this make it to the top of Hacker News. Flagged. Any suggestions for how to get back to having hacker news on Hacker News? (And please spare us the lame "situational logic" response of how <anyShit> is hacker news.)
- deleted 16y ago[deleted]
- sev 16y agoBy having a mental gauge of what's too subjective and not posting those, as well as not voting on, commenting on, etc? Maybe there is some sort of algorithm that can be established to determine the level of subjectivity of an article or post with a 95% confidence interval?
- fiaz 16y agoGiven that the US is largely considered the most entrepreneurial country in the world, I think this is relevant. A lot of people from other countries want to do business here, and this very well might be of concern to them. This thread has sparked a large discussion and I think this is in line with the submission guidelines as being intellectually gratifying. http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- tptacek 16y agoWow are "intellectually gratifying" and "sparking a large discussion" ever not always the same thing.
- e40 16y agoYour are picking on the one time he goes hyperbolic. Overall, there are good points in the post, even if he does make that one statement that is obviously false. Just read it as "many" and move on.
- davidw 16y ago
- rue 16y agoI'm a permanent resident of the U.S., but even with the green card the hassles at the border are just nasty regardless of where I've been or for how long. The attitude is atrocious and I usually feel more like a criminal they've reluctantly had to let back in rather than welcomed back home. Green card holders also get fingerprinted and in some cases retina-scanned at re-entry. The nudie scans have only managed to create a small additional inconvenience for me…
- rue 16y ago(And I'm a white guy from northern EU. My sympathies to those from more targeted regions or ethnicities.)
- ugh 16y agoOn several occasions I've had expensive gear disappear from my carry-on during security checks and last year a TSA agent dropped my Canon 1D Mk3, smashing both the lens and the camera body. No apology, but more importantly: I was never compensated. That can’t be, can it? Property damage is property damage. Shouldn’t the TSA have insurance anyway? Is he stretching the truth?
- known 16y agoDon't come to America. USA debt is $200 trillion. http://www.blacklistednews.com/?news_id=10626 http://www.blacklistednews.com/?news_id=10626
- Jakku 16y agoI travel alot around the world. America is the only country where I am treated like shit when I go through the airport. This time they took everything out of my bag. Spent ten minutes reading my diary! I mean what the fuck! Were aggressive, rude. The system is an utter disgrace to foreigners. I wont be coming back.
- sp_ 16y agoI always resented traveling to the US too because of border controls. Recently I moved to the US and felt relieved that I do not have to go through immigration there anymore. Seconds after that thought I had the epiphany that I now have to go through immigration whenever I am going anywhere else in the world. The funny thing is that I have never had a bad experience with US immigration. The only time I had a non-smooth experience was in Canada, before a flight from Montreal to Atlanta. An officer waved me out of line saying "I'm sorry sir but you were selected for a random security check. You can thank Mr George W. Bush for that." The two funniest experiences I had was when entering Dubai and Sao Paulo, In Sao Paulo the immigration officer did not speak a single word of English. I do not speak any Portuguese. We quickly realized this frustrating situation and I was waved through. In Dubai I was the first person in line at the customs and not knowing what to do I just kept walking. The customs people just stood there and looked at me. I was already quite far behind the customs people, nearly out of the airport, when I realized that I just walked past the customs officers without having my bags or anything checked. So I went the whole way back just to go through customs properly.