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Japan has a 99% conviction rate and indefinite uncharged detention happens often. Despite that people treat police amicably, and there is a trusting relationshi

Japan has a 99% conviction rate and indefinite uncharged detention happens often. Despite that people treat police amicably, and there is a trusting relationship. That's to me a sign that there is a fundamental cultural difference in Japanese attitude, in the US stats aren't anywhere as close to as severe, yet relations/trust is much worse. Goes to show how much of a productivity and effectiveness loss lack of trust is, regardless of how justified.

naniwaduni 7y ago
There are about two ways to get a 99% conviction rate: run total kangaroo courts that only fail to convict when the defendant credibly threatens big problems if they get convicted, or just don't take cases that aren't open-and-shut to court in the first place. And while the kangaroo court thing is maybe a bit too true to be comfortable with, I'd wager Japan errs heavily on the side of not bringing potentially contentious cases to court.
- dralley 7y ago
  It's easy to find examples for both: https://www.vox.com/world/2015/12/13/9989250/japan-crime-conviction-rate https://www.vox.com/world/2015/12/13/9989250/japan-crime-con... https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-2007-nov-09-fg-autopsy9-story.html https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-2007-nov-09-fg-autop... (although I would like to make clear -- in any large country, you will find examples of both)
- chmod775 7y ago
  Japan is a bit of both. Prosecutors are extremely reluctant to bring cases to court if a conviction isn't guaranteed (losing a case is extremely embarrassing), and for this reason judges almost always side with them because they assume a prosecutor wouldn't bring a case against someone who is not definitely guilty. Basically in Japan they err on the side of letting criminals roam free if it's not an open-and-shut case in front of a judge, but it sucks for the (very few) who are wrongfully convicted, because nobody will believe them. Especially because you'll never get the government to admit they wrongfully convicted someone.
epicgiga 7y ago
Factoring in plea bargaining the US and Japan have roughly the same conviction rate. Factoring in people held in US because they can't make bail, also diminished some of the "held without trial" margin. But this is fundamentally a bigger problem in Japan, as it has now embarrassed the country on the world stage due to the Ghosn case. A state that holds people just becauss it doesn't like them, rather than due to evidence of breaking its laws, relegates them to the same league as the North Koreas of the world. Profoundly embarrassing for a first world country and a major step backwards in reputation.
- hef19898 7y ago
  Sure? I mean evidently Ghosn was a high flight risk. And whether or not his conduct was illegal or not is still not decided. For once a powerful person was close to be held for trial over stuff that was sketchy enough to be prosecuted. In a democracy. And still some people are complaining about it. Compare the Ghosn case to other scandals, like the VW emissions scandal. In the VW case it was only lower ranking managers who got charged and convicted. While the higher ups are still free and German investigators, while doing their job from what I can tell, still managed to keep VWs godfather, Ferdinand Piech, out of the story.
  - epicgiga 7y ago
    But who won? Even assuming Ghosn committed a crime, they ended up looking like the crooks. And one man succeeding in shady dealings hurts few. But the state succeeding in boundless detention puts everyone in peril. He may have some power, but there is no more powerful an entity than the state. There's a basic rule of war: slow slow, fast fast. You slowly and quietly gather your forces and telegraph nothing, and when the moment comes, you unleash it all at once and unrelentingly. That's what they should've done. Not made a move until they had the evidence to put him away. The fact they couldn't do crap for months on end just broadcasts to the world: "we don't actually have any evidence to convict him on". Nothing's sacred in this world, not even habeas corpus, because no one can be arsed reading history -- it was never a matter of anyone forgetting it.
jbay808 7y ago
The high conviction rate seems to be because cases are dropped unless the prosecution's confidence is very high, rather than letting it go to trial. https://youtu.be/OINAk2xl8Bc https://youtu.be/OINAk2xl8Bc
- hef19898 7y ago
  That's a system in which the prosecution doesn't go yo court without enough evidence. Which is a good thing, IMHO. Might also mean that some reasonable cases aren't taken to court for lack of confidence on the prosecution s side. Still, largely preferable to the opposite. The system not pushing everything tends to benefit the powerful. The other system em also tends to hurt the weak. One evil is still better than two, if you ask me.
  - einpoklum 7y ago
    Not necessarily. In some world states, the prosecution, having taken a case to court but seeing that it is likely to lose, often drops the case. This typically coincides with the practice of judges of dropping strong hints to one side or the other that they will rule against them, and thus it might be better to drop the case.
skrebbel 7y ago
I think it also helps that most cops outside the US don't err on the side of shooting people dead. Which is a direct result of proper gun control, Japanese cops aren't continuously walking around in fear of their lives. FWIW, in plenty European countries, police officers are also treated amicably (and asked for directions, etc, much like in Japan) but there's also no 99% conviction rate. I think Japanese cops are treated with trust despite the scary conviction rate, not because of it. If I were a cop in the US, I'd also be an aggressive dick. I'd rather rough innocent people up a bit too often than get shot because I was too easy going. It must be one of the scariest jobs in the world.
coldtea 7y ago
>in the US stats aren't anywhere as close to as severe Well, the US has the largest incarceration rate in the world (24% of the world's prison population for 5% of the world's population), the death penalty, and even death penalty for teenagers, plus horrible prison conditions, private prisons that are profit centers, widespread acceptance that prisoners must be "punished" (as opposed to reformed, etc), the medieval three strikes law, bail law. Plus cops routinely shooting people, and even SWAT-ization of police forces. So I'd say it's justified that the "relations/trust" is much worse. The Japanese conviction rate or detection could affect a much smaller amount of their population -- and it could be even because prosecutors only move on when they are close to 100% sure about a case.
diegoperini 7y ago
I'm not Japanese, but I've seen this Japanese person explaining the situation informally but thoroughly. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OINAk2xl8Bc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OINAk2xl8Bc The premise is, yes 99% percent is a measured rate but also has no utility in a discussion if the other parts of the big picture is ignored.

naniwaduni 7y ago

There are about two ways to get a 99% conviction rate: run total kangaroo courts that only fail to convict when the defendant credibly threatens big problems if they get convicted, or just don't take cases that aren't open-and-shut to court in the first place. And while the kangaroo court thing is maybe a bit too true to be comfortable with, I'd wager Japan errs heavily on the side of not bringing potentially contentious cases to court.

dralley 7y ago
It's easy to find examples for both: https://www.vox.com/world/2015/12/13/9989250/japan-crime-conviction-rate https://www.vox.com/world/2015/12/13/9989250/japan-crime-con... https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-2007-nov-09-fg-autopsy9-story.html https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-2007-nov-09-fg-autop... (although I would like to make clear -- in any large country, you will find examples of both)
chmod775 7y ago
Japan is a bit of both. Prosecutors are extremely reluctant to bring cases to court if a conviction isn't guaranteed (losing a case is extremely embarrassing), and for this reason judges almost always side with them because they assume a prosecutor wouldn't bring a case against someone who is not definitely guilty. Basically in Japan they err on the side of letting criminals roam free if it's not an open-and-shut case in front of a judge, but it sucks for the (very few) who are wrongfully convicted, because nobody will believe them. Especially because you'll never get the government to admit they wrongfully convicted someone.

epicgiga 7y ago

Factoring in plea bargaining the US and Japan have roughly the same conviction rate. Factoring in people held in US because they can't make bail, also diminished some of the "held without trial" margin. But this is fundamentally a bigger problem in Japan, as it has now embarrassed the country on the world stage due to the Ghosn case. A state that holds people just becauss it doesn't like them, rather than due to evidence of breaking its laws, relegates them to the same league as the North Koreas of the world. Profoundly embarrassing for a first world country and a major step backwards in reputation.

hef19898 7y ago
Sure? I mean evidently Ghosn was a high flight risk. And whether or not his conduct was illegal or not is still not decided. For once a powerful person was close to be held for trial over stuff that was sketchy enough to be prosecuted. In a democracy. And still some people are complaining about it. Compare the Ghosn case to other scandals, like the VW emissions scandal. In the VW case it was only lower ranking managers who got charged and convicted. While the higher ups are still free and German investigators, while doing their job from what I can tell, still managed to keep VWs godfather, Ferdinand Piech, out of the story.
- epicgiga 7y ago
  But who won? Even assuming Ghosn committed a crime, they ended up looking like the crooks. And one man succeeding in shady dealings hurts few. But the state succeeding in boundless detention puts everyone in peril. He may have some power, but there is no more powerful an entity than the state. There's a basic rule of war: slow slow, fast fast. You slowly and quietly gather your forces and telegraph nothing, and when the moment comes, you unleash it all at once and unrelentingly. That's what they should've done. Not made a move until they had the evidence to put him away. The fact they couldn't do crap for months on end just broadcasts to the world: "we don't actually have any evidence to convict him on". Nothing's sacred in this world, not even habeas corpus, because no one can be arsed reading history -- it was never a matter of anyone forgetting it.

jbay808 7y ago

The high conviction rate seems to be because cases are dropped unless the prosecution's confidence is very high, rather than letting it go to trial. https://youtu.be/OINAk2xl8Bc https://youtu.be/OINAk2xl8Bc

hef19898 7y ago
That's a system in which the prosecution doesn't go yo court without enough evidence. Which is a good thing, IMHO. Might also mean that some reasonable cases aren't taken to court for lack of confidence on the prosecution s side. Still, largely preferable to the opposite. The system not pushing everything tends to benefit the powerful. The other system em also tends to hurt the weak. One evil is still better than two, if you ask me.
- einpoklum 7y ago
  Not necessarily. In some world states, the prosecution, having taken a case to court but seeing that it is likely to lose, often drops the case. This typically coincides with the practice of judges of dropping strong hints to one side or the other that they will rule against them, and thus it might be better to drop the case.

skrebbel 7y ago

I think it also helps that most cops outside the US don't err on the side of shooting people dead. Which is a direct result of proper gun control, Japanese cops aren't continuously walking around in fear of their lives. FWIW, in plenty European countries, police officers are also treated amicably (and asked for directions, etc, much like in Japan) but there's also no 99% conviction rate. I think Japanese cops are treated with trust despite the scary conviction rate, not because of it. If I were a cop in the US, I'd also be an aggressive dick. I'd rather rough innocent people up a bit too often than get shot because I was too easy going. It must be one of the scariest jobs in the world.

coldtea 7y ago

>in the US stats aren't anywhere as close to as severe Well, the US has the largest incarceration rate in the world (24% of the world's prison population for 5% of the world's population), the death penalty, and even death penalty for teenagers, plus horrible prison conditions, private prisons that are profit centers, widespread acceptance that prisoners must be "punished" (as opposed to reformed, etc), the medieval three strikes law, bail law. Plus cops routinely shooting people, and even SWAT-ization of police forces. So I'd say it's justified that the "relations/trust" is much worse. The Japanese conviction rate or detection could affect a much smaller amount of their population -- and it could be even because prosecutors only move on when they are close to 100% sure about a case.

diegoperini 7y ago

I'm not Japanese, but I've seen this Japanese person explaining the situation informally but thoroughly. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OINAk2xl8Bc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OINAk2xl8Bc The premise is, yes 99% percent is a measured rate but also has no utility in a discussion if the other parts of the big picture is ignored.