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As someone who lives in Japan I believe this is not a result of "Japanese people being more honest", but rather: - Availability. There are police stations (kob

As someone who lives in Japan I believe this is not a result of "Japanese people being more honest", but rather: - Availability. There are police stations (kobans) and officers on the street everywhere, just a few steps away from wherever I may find something. Turning in a lost item has no friction. All it takes is a few extra steps. In the U.S. there is huge friction - I would need to go out of my way to go to a police station and turn in something. - The general view of police and government as your "friendly helper" as opposed to enemies. Officers and public staff (at train stations, etc) are service workers there to help you. I can ask them literally anything - directions, store recommendations, etc - and it's totally normal. Turning in a lost item to some random officer on the street is just a normal. In the U.S., I try my best to avoid all people in police uniform. They tend to be unfriendly, not helpful, and their job is to see if I am doing something illegal - not to help me. While this may not be true, that is my perception. I wouldn't even trust them to actually take care of a lost item I give to them. And the fact that they're carrying guns doesn't make them look any more friendly/helpful. The definition of what "police" means in Japan vs. most Western countries is completely different.

jefftk 7y ago
This is how police are portrayed in many older American children's books. I don't know whether it was actually that way, though, or just aspirational?
atonse 7y ago
That is what we in the US call "community policing" which is how it used to be. The cultural image of a policeman used to be the overweight donut eating totally approachable "dad" type figure, look at pretty much any hollywood movie or show from the 70s or 80s. And since 9/11 the police have gotten a lot more militaristic. But police departments all over the country are TRYING to return to the idea of community policing. It'll take a while before we get there but that's absolutely where things need to be.
- WnZ39p0Dgydaz1 7y ago
  That's interesting. Thinking about it a bit more, my current image comes from the fact that I never had "positive" interactions with police or government workers in the U.S. The only interactions I ever had with the police were when I did something wrong like speeding, or carrying alcohol outside. In Japan, kids constantly have small positive interactions with the police, government workers, or other people in uniform. They may greet or bow to you on the street, help with traffic, announce trains, etc. That contributes to the image that they are approachable and want to help you. If you grow up with that, you'll have a very different image of the police.
- int_19h 7y ago
  Militarization of police began in mid-70s, mostly as a consequence of ramping up the "war on drugs". It just took a while for the old stereotype to shatter.
- qtplatypus 7y ago
  Yes police where more community oriented in the 70's and 80's however that was something that only WASPS got. If you were an african-american, hispanic, gay etc the police where never your friend. I have also heard people claim that in the long term this trend towards militaristic/adversarial policing is a long term fallout of the 1960's. Bright people who wanted to help others saw the police as authoritarian supporters of the status quo, so did not join. Which over the long term shifted the culture of police forces.
unishark 7y ago
> The general view of police and government as your "friendly helper" as opposed to enemies. The US has a much more negative and adversarial view of govt in general, but in polls a large majority has a much more favorable view of cops versus other govt agencies. Certainly it's a terrible generalization to say americans view cops as enemies. One import factor here is where specifically you live. Police in the US are local systems which totally differ based on local laws and culture. In a place like Los Angeles County, with its high crime problems, cops are a lot more jaded and defensive. Meanwhile in the small beach cities in LA, the cops are very helpful and mellow.
- keerthiko 7y ago
  It's just as terrible a generalization to use polls that don't consider a great many of the people harassed and oppressed by police forces (immigrants, PoC, incarcerated, poor neighborhoods, homeless people). Yes, people feel both ways about cops, and that lack of uniformly friendly relationship across the populace is the whole point brought up by GP. To their exact sentiment > The general view of police and government as your "friendly helper" as opposed to enemies ...the key phrase is "general view" and not "enemies". The general view in america is more varied, as a function of the diversity of people, experiences and opinions, for better or worse.
  - unishark 7y ago
    On the contrary a poll is about the best possible way to make generalizations. It uses random sampling to make estimates about a population. Otherwise the loudest get all the attention, certainly a big issue when it comes to cops lately. I guess polls might miss homeless people, though there aren't enough to swing the numbers noticeably. I don't see why they'd hate cops especially. I wonder how incarcerated people in Japan feel about cops. Have you seen ho they treat prisoners?
    - lazyasciiart 7y ago
      Homeless people would be more likely to have a negative view of cops because cops arrest them for loitering/sleeping in public/being a nuisance? And polls might not include incarcerated people, yea. That will make a bigger difference in the US stats (0.65% of the population incarcerated, vs Japans 0.05%).
laurieg 7y ago
I agree with you that it's easy to return things in Japan. I also think there is a slight flip-side, at least in the city. There are so many people crammed together that there is a sense of always being watched, doubly so if you are a minority. I remember picking up a 100yen coin (about 1USD) in a train station. Normally I would just put it in my pocket and think "lucky me" but I was keenly aware of the station worker watching me from the ticket office. I walked over to the worker and handed him the coin saying it was lost property. I do sometimes wonder what happened to that 100yen.
- jesterson 7y ago
  Knowing how bureaucracy in Japan works, I bet it's still there buried in station documents altogether with pile of papers stating when it was found, who passed it to who and when, probably detailed description with meticulous description of all dents on the coin.
stonekyx 7y ago
The Japanese police are not always the friendly helper though, especially when something not in their daily routine happens. They're insanely rigid, almost always put arrested people in detention for maximum of 23 days even if they know the people are innocent, and they have a 99% conviction rate. After living here for a couple of years, I feel that this is also closely linked to the highly homogeneous culture, where people are generally very friendly and kind to those who share the same origin, and can become unconsciously biased against people or things out of the "normal" world.
- tasogare 7y ago
  > They're insanely rigid Like any other organizations and most Japanese. Anything out of the book is "impossible", the subset of rules that must be followed are strictly enforced and anything unplanned needs 12 people "hummm-ing" for hours to take an obvious common sense decision.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
drak0n1c 7y ago
Japan has a 99% conviction rate and indefinite uncharged detention happens often. Despite that people treat police amicably, and there is a trusting relationship. That's to me a sign that there is a fundamental cultural difference in Japanese attitude, in the US stats aren't anywhere as close to as severe, yet relations/trust is much worse. Goes to show how much of a productivity and effectiveness loss lack of trust is, regardless of how justified.
- naniwaduni 7y ago
  There are about two ways to get a 99% conviction rate: run total kangaroo courts that only fail to convict when the defendant credibly threatens big problems if they get convicted, or just don't take cases that aren't open-and-shut to court in the first place. And while the kangaroo court thing is maybe a bit too true to be comfortable with, I'd wager Japan errs heavily on the side of not bringing potentially contentious cases to court.
  - dralley 7y ago
    It's easy to find examples for both: https://www.vox.com/world/2015/12/13/9989250/japan-crime-conviction-rate https://www.vox.com/world/2015/12/13/9989250/japan-crime-con... https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-2007-nov-09-fg-autopsy9-story.html https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-2007-nov-09-fg-autop... (although I would like to make clear -- in any large country, you will find examples of both)
  - chmod775 7y ago
    Japan is a bit of both. Prosecutors are extremely reluctant to bring cases to court if a conviction isn't guaranteed (losing a case is extremely embarrassing), and for this reason judges almost always side with them because they assume a prosecutor wouldn't bring a case against someone who is not definitely guilty. Basically in Japan they err on the side of letting criminals roam free if it's not an open-and-shut case in front of a judge, but it sucks for the (very few) who are wrongfully convicted, because nobody will believe them. Especially because you'll never get the government to admit they wrongfully convicted someone.
- 7y ago
epicgiga 7y ago
I disagree. It's more due to the rigid drumming in of "these are the rules you must follow" from a young age, backed up by harsh social ostracism of those who don't follow these social rules. Children in Japan are taught at a young age to turn in even small found items, like a single small denomination coin, to the police station. This bakes into them the sense that "that's what you do with found items" and coupled with the fact the police will return it to them if no one collects it, bakes in a sense of trust of the police at an early age.
wst_ 7y ago
As someone with similar experience, I disagree completely. It lies deeply in Japanese culture and is thaught since early days. Proiximity to the police station has nothing to do with it. If anything, they will leave things on the street if there is no koban near by. Every single kid knows that, if you see some unattended property, the safest option is to leave it be. If it's a commodity then you can return it and probably should. Everything else you don't touch (and by any circumstances you don't touch bicycles!) I don't remember the thread, but there was a story here on HN about the guy who tried to take and return the bike to the police station. He was, to his own surprise, questioned hardly about why did he do that and what was he thinking. They wanted to put him in detention, too. I do agree about police helpers, though. I am not living in Japan anymore and, boy, I am missing that.
Grustaf 7y ago
> The general view of police and government as your "friendly helper" as opposed to enemies And you don't think that people who view the police as "enemies" tend to be less honest... Come on, this is very far from the only example of the extremely high social capital in Japan compared to the West, especially the US. It's just absurd to pretend that it is mainly due to the number of police boxes.
kwhitefoot 7y ago
> - Availability. Many years ago where [1] I was working as a designer of test equipment the head of the drafting department had a saying: "If you make the right way the easy way people won't do things the wrong way." He ran his department on those principles and got things done accurately and quickly. It looks like the Japanese have the same idea. [1] Philips Mullard semiconductor plant, Southampton, late 70s, early 80s. Such a long time ago I can no longer remember his name.

jefftk 7y ago

This is how police are portrayed in many older American children's books. I don't know whether it was actually that way, though, or just aspirational?

atonse 7y ago

That is what we in the US call "community policing" which is how it used to be. The cultural image of a policeman used to be the overweight donut eating totally approachable "dad" type figure, look at pretty much any hollywood movie or show from the 70s or 80s. And since 9/11 the police have gotten a lot more militaristic. But police departments all over the country are TRYING to return to the idea of community policing. It'll take a while before we get there but that's absolutely where things need to be.

WnZ39p0Dgydaz1 7y ago
That's interesting. Thinking about it a bit more, my current image comes from the fact that I never had "positive" interactions with police or government workers in the U.S. The only interactions I ever had with the police were when I did something wrong like speeding, or carrying alcohol outside. In Japan, kids constantly have small positive interactions with the police, government workers, or other people in uniform. They may greet or bow to you on the street, help with traffic, announce trains, etc. That contributes to the image that they are approachable and want to help you. If you grow up with that, you'll have a very different image of the police.
int_19h 7y ago
Militarization of police began in mid-70s, mostly as a consequence of ramping up the "war on drugs". It just took a while for the old stereotype to shatter.
qtplatypus 7y ago
Yes police where more community oriented in the 70's and 80's however that was something that only WASPS got. If you were an african-american, hispanic, gay etc the police where never your friend. I have also heard people claim that in the long term this trend towards militaristic/adversarial policing is a long term fallout of the 1960's. Bright people who wanted to help others saw the police as authoritarian supporters of the status quo, so did not join. Which over the long term shifted the culture of police forces.

unishark 7y ago

> The general view of police and government as your "friendly helper" as opposed to enemies. The US has a much more negative and adversarial view of govt in general, but in polls a large majority has a much more favorable view of cops versus other govt agencies. Certainly it's a terrible generalization to say americans view cops as enemies. One import factor here is where specifically you live. Police in the US are local systems which totally differ based on local laws and culture. In a place like Los Angeles County, with its high crime problems, cops are a lot more jaded and defensive. Meanwhile in the small beach cities in LA, the cops are very helpful and mellow.

keerthiko 7y ago
It's just as terrible a generalization to use polls that don't consider a great many of the people harassed and oppressed by police forces (immigrants, PoC, incarcerated, poor neighborhoods, homeless people). Yes, people feel both ways about cops, and that lack of uniformly friendly relationship across the populace is the whole point brought up by GP. To their exact sentiment > The general view of police and government as your "friendly helper" as opposed to enemies ...the key phrase is "general view" and not "enemies". The general view in america is more varied, as a function of the diversity of people, experiences and opinions, for better or worse.
- unishark 7y ago
  On the contrary a poll is about the best possible way to make generalizations. It uses random sampling to make estimates about a population. Otherwise the loudest get all the attention, certainly a big issue when it comes to cops lately. I guess polls might miss homeless people, though there aren't enough to swing the numbers noticeably. I don't see why they'd hate cops especially. I wonder how incarcerated people in Japan feel about cops. Have you seen ho they treat prisoners?
  - lazyasciiart 7y ago
    Homeless people would be more likely to have a negative view of cops because cops arrest them for loitering/sleeping in public/being a nuisance? And polls might not include incarcerated people, yea. That will make a bigger difference in the US stats (0.65% of the population incarcerated, vs Japans 0.05%).

laurieg 7y ago

I agree with you that it's easy to return things in Japan. I also think there is a slight flip-side, at least in the city. There are so many people crammed together that there is a sense of always being watched, doubly so if you are a minority. I remember picking up a 100yen coin (about 1USD) in a train station. Normally I would just put it in my pocket and think "lucky me" but I was keenly aware of the station worker watching me from the ticket office. I walked over to the worker and handed him the coin saying it was lost property. I do sometimes wonder what happened to that 100yen.

jesterson 7y ago
Knowing how bureaucracy in Japan works, I bet it's still there buried in station documents altogether with pile of papers stating when it was found, who passed it to who and when, probably detailed description with meticulous description of all dents on the coin.

stonekyx 7y ago

The Japanese police are not always the friendly helper though, especially when something not in their daily routine happens. They're insanely rigid, almost always put arrested people in detention for maximum of 23 days even if they know the people are innocent, and they have a 99% conviction rate. After living here for a couple of years, I feel that this is also closely linked to the highly homogeneous culture, where people are generally very friendly and kind to those who share the same origin, and can become unconsciously biased against people or things out of the "normal" world.

tasogare 7y ago
> They're insanely rigid Like any other organizations and most Japanese. Anything out of the book is "impossible", the subset of rules that must be followed are strictly enforced and anything unplanned needs 12 people "hummm-ing" for hours to take an obvious common sense decision.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

drak0n1c 7y ago

Japan has a 99% conviction rate and indefinite uncharged detention happens often. Despite that people treat police amicably, and there is a trusting relationship. That's to me a sign that there is a fundamental cultural difference in Japanese attitude, in the US stats aren't anywhere as close to as severe, yet relations/trust is much worse. Goes to show how much of a productivity and effectiveness loss lack of trust is, regardless of how justified.

naniwaduni 7y ago
There are about two ways to get a 99% conviction rate: run total kangaroo courts that only fail to convict when the defendant credibly threatens big problems if they get convicted, or just don't take cases that aren't open-and-shut to court in the first place. And while the kangaroo court thing is maybe a bit too true to be comfortable with, I'd wager Japan errs heavily on the side of not bringing potentially contentious cases to court.
- dralley 7y ago
  It's easy to find examples for both: https://www.vox.com/world/2015/12/13/9989250/japan-crime-conviction-rate https://www.vox.com/world/2015/12/13/9989250/japan-crime-con... https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-2007-nov-09-fg-autopsy9-story.html https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-2007-nov-09-fg-autop... (although I would like to make clear -- in any large country, you will find examples of both)
- chmod775 7y ago
  Japan is a bit of both. Prosecutors are extremely reluctant to bring cases to court if a conviction isn't guaranteed (losing a case is extremely embarrassing), and for this reason judges almost always side with them because they assume a prosecutor wouldn't bring a case against someone who is not definitely guilty. Basically in Japan they err on the side of letting criminals roam free if it's not an open-and-shut case in front of a judge, but it sucks for the (very few) who are wrongfully convicted, because nobody will believe them. Especially because you'll never get the government to admit they wrongfully convicted someone.
7y ago

epicgiga 7y ago

I disagree. It's more due to the rigid drumming in of "these are the rules you must follow" from a young age, backed up by harsh social ostracism of those who don't follow these social rules. Children in Japan are taught at a young age to turn in even small found items, like a single small denomination coin, to the police station. This bakes into them the sense that "that's what you do with found items" and coupled with the fact the police will return it to them if no one collects it, bakes in a sense of trust of the police at an early age.

wst_ 7y ago

As someone with similar experience, I disagree completely. It lies deeply in Japanese culture and is thaught since early days. Proiximity to the police station has nothing to do with it. If anything, they will leave things on the street if there is no koban near by. Every single kid knows that, if you see some unattended property, the safest option is to leave it be. If it's a commodity then you can return it and probably should. Everything else you don't touch (and by any circumstances you don't touch bicycles!) I don't remember the thread, but there was a story here on HN about the guy who tried to take and return the bike to the police station. He was, to his own surprise, questioned hardly about why did he do that and what was he thinking. They wanted to put him in detention, too. I do agree about police helpers, though. I am not living in Japan anymore and, boy, I am missing that.

Grustaf 7y ago

> The general view of police and government as your "friendly helper" as opposed to enemies And you don't think that people who view the police as "enemies" tend to be less honest... Come on, this is very far from the only example of the extremely high social capital in Japan compared to the West, especially the US. It's just absurd to pretend that it is mainly due to the number of police boxes.

kwhitefoot 7y ago

> - Availability. Many years ago where [1] I was working as a designer of test equipment the head of the drafting department had a saying: "If you make the right way the easy way people won't do things the wrong way." He ran his department on those principles and got things done accurately and quickly. It looks like the Japanese have the same idea. [1] Philips Mullard semiconductor plant, Southampton, late 70s, early 80s. Such a long time ago I can no longer remember his name.