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More directly to the topic of this discussion: the problem with screens is that they are a very easy tool for making children shut up and stop bothering the adu

More directly to the topic of this discussion: the problem with screens is that they are a very easy tool for making children shut up and stop bothering the adults, and a much more difficult tool to make into a challenging and thoughtful experience. As a result many adults lean on using screens to distract their children much more than they absolutely need, and end up reliant on them. And the kids end up using screens in a way that is wasting a ton of time and not helping their development. The material on screen is very often (from what I can observe just walking around town and seeing kids looking at them) grossly inappropriate for the child’s current level – either too simple and repetitive or too advanced and incomprehensible – but the sounds, colors, and especially movement are so exciting as pure distraction that kids will sit entranced, whether or not they are learning anything. The overstimulation from the screen is addictive enough for the kids that the kids will start to fuss and cry when the screen is removed, and when given the choice the screen will crowd out other toys and activities. It is probably possible to make a screen a meaningful learning experience for young kids, but few parents (especially the ones who are using the screen to get a break from childcare) have the time to research and personally vet material to figure that out. If a kid watches 30m of Mr. Rogers every day, they’re going to be fine. But the kids watching 2 hours of YouTube low-budget animated nursery rhymes on loop, or watching endless unboxing videos, or playing a too-easy iPad game, when they could otherwise be playing with and learning about the physical world, are really missing out. This is not to say that kids shouldn’t regularly spend some time entertaining themselves while the parents do something else. But if they can learn to do so with a wimmelbook or some crayons or some blocks or a cardboard box.... they’re usually going to be learning more than if stuck in front of a TV.

Waterluvian 7y ago
I generally agree with all of that. And all of that, to me, suggests even just a fundamental level of involvement by parents is what's important. This doesn't seem to have anything to do with screens being a problem.
- em-bee 7y ago
  well the problem is that screens exist. when i grew up screens didn't exist (at least not in my home), and so the problem solved itself in other ways. we got crazy on comic books. parents didn't get involved. (though they helped us buy up the remaining stocks of a second hand comic book dealer when that closed down. the problem with screens is that they are strongly attractive. my kids don't even notice me when they watch a screen. from the available entertainment kids will pick what is most attractive, and the only way to reduce screen time is to not make it available, and instead provide other options.
stef25 7y ago
> If a kid watches 30m of Mr. Rogers every day, they’re going to be fine We try doing that with 20 min of Paw Patrol and it's impossible. Give a finger, they take an arm. It's impossible to regulate the quantity. No matter how many different options they have available to play or what promises you try to make before hand, it ALWAYS ends in a total meltdown. We get 20 min of peace, followed by 40 min of hysteria. Before streaming media (YT, Netflix) we could watch something say Sunday 6PM or Saturday 7AM, and that was it. Now everything's on demand and they know perfectly well there's always more as long parents say ok. The only solution is to stop. After a few days of no TV, they stop asking and happily draw, leaf through books, build stuff. But nothing says "peace" like a kid watching TV.
- jacobolus 7y ago
  Maybe try watching full-length ballets or operas instead, or nature videos, cooking shows, videos of people doing carpentry projects, videos of people playing music, ... Or something along the lines of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Secret_Life_of_Machines https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Secret_Life_of_Machines Dunno.. I tend to watch video with my 3.5 year old rather than leaving him to watch video while I go do something else. We only watch videos occasionally (maybe 3 hours/week on average), and don’t really end up with meltdowns when we stop. But that method doesn’t help if the goal was to get some time alone as a parent.
- exikyut 7y ago
  This is because Paw Patrol is designed to a very specific formula that is designed to get kids super-hyped up so they a) become mesmerized by what they are watching and b) want more of it - which just so happens to be possible, courtesy of the toy store. (The "there's always more [content out there]" component you mention - something I am very familiar with as someone with ADHD :X - folds nicely into the mesmerism/relive component described above.) Where I learned about this recently: https://www.theglobeandmail.com/arts/television/whats-paw-patrols-secret-how-it-captivated-children-and-conquered-theworld/article37417532/ https://www.theglobeandmail.com/arts/television/whats-paw-pa... Linked from: https://www.theatlantic.com/family/archive/2020/02/how-toys-are-marketed-kids-without-cable-tv/605920/ https://www.theatlantic.com/family/archive/2020/02/how-toys-... / https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22259025 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22259025 (9 days ago)

Waterluvian 7y ago

I generally agree with all of that. And all of that, to me, suggests even just a fundamental level of involvement by parents is what's important. This doesn't seem to have anything to do with screens being a problem.

em-bee 7y ago
well the problem is that screens exist. when i grew up screens didn't exist (at least not in my home), and so the problem solved itself in other ways. we got crazy on comic books. parents didn't get involved. (though they helped us buy up the remaining stocks of a second hand comic book dealer when that closed down. the problem with screens is that they are strongly attractive. my kids don't even notice me when they watch a screen. from the available entertainment kids will pick what is most attractive, and the only way to reduce screen time is to not make it available, and instead provide other options.

stef25 7y ago

> If a kid watches 30m of Mr. Rogers every day, they’re going to be fine We try doing that with 20 min of Paw Patrol and it's impossible. Give a finger, they take an arm. It's impossible to regulate the quantity. No matter how many different options they have available to play or what promises you try to make before hand, it ALWAYS ends in a total meltdown. We get 20 min of peace, followed by 40 min of hysteria. Before streaming media (YT, Netflix) we could watch something say Sunday 6PM or Saturday 7AM, and that was it. Now everything's on demand and they know perfectly well there's always more as long parents say ok. The only solution is to stop. After a few days of no TV, they stop asking and happily draw, leaf through books, build stuff. But nothing says "peace" like a kid watching TV.

jacobolus 7y ago
Maybe try watching full-length ballets or operas instead, or nature videos, cooking shows, videos of people doing carpentry projects, videos of people playing music, ... Or something along the lines of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Secret_Life_of_Machines https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Secret_Life_of_Machines Dunno.. I tend to watch video with my 3.5 year old rather than leaving him to watch video while I go do something else. We only watch videos occasionally (maybe 3 hours/week on average), and don’t really end up with meltdowns when we stop. But that method doesn’t help if the goal was to get some time alone as a parent.
exikyut 7y ago
This is because Paw Patrol is designed to a very specific formula that is designed to get kids super-hyped up so they a) become mesmerized by what they are watching and b) want more of it - which just so happens to be possible, courtesy of the toy store. (The "there's always more [content out there]" component you mention - something I am very familiar with as someone with ADHD :X - folds nicely into the mesmerism/relive component described above.) Where I learned about this recently: https://www.theglobeandmail.com/arts/television/whats-paw-patrols-secret-how-it-captivated-children-and-conquered-theworld/article37417532/ https://www.theglobeandmail.com/arts/television/whats-paw-pa... Linked from: https://www.theatlantic.com/family/archive/2020/02/how-toys-are-marketed-kids-without-cable-tv/605920/ https://www.theatlantic.com/family/archive/2020/02/how-toys-... / https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22259025 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22259025 (9 days ago)