5 ms·

> The healthcare system is free and very good if you have something life threatening but if not, you're looking at 2 month waiting time to see a specialist and

> The healthcare system is free and very good if you have something life threatening but if not, you're looking at 2 month waiting time to see a specialist and there's no way I can be living and working with a health discomfort for that long so I pay up and see a private doctor. The private doctor is still cheaper than copays/deductibles in the US. So that seems like a weird argument to make.

ChuckNorris89 7y ago
>The private doctor is still cheaper than copays/deductibles in the US. Skilled workers in the US also earn way more than their European counterparts.
- hannasanarion 7y ago
  And unskilled workers earn less. So what?
  - wormseed 7y ago
    Not necessarily. One datapoint: Amazon pays fulfilment workers $15/hour in the US, but €11/hour (~$12) in Germany
    - golf1052 7y ago
      How far does $15/hour go in some parts of the US vs €11/hour in some parts of Germany?
    - fzeroracer 7y ago
      I imagine if you took a look at total compensation (vacation, PTO, insurance, maternity leave), stronger labor laws and other societal benefits such as cheaper college, those workers earning €11/hr would probably be able to save a lot more of it compared to their counterpart in the US. And bonus if they get sick, they don't have to worry as much about losing their job and spiraling down into crippling debt.
  - sdinsn 7y ago
    > And unskilled workers earn less. Is this actually true?
  - the_mitsuhiko 7y ago
    Even accounting for differences in income the cost for private doctor visits don’t make the US system cheaper. Especially because the private doctors need to provide pricing before you go there, there is an actual market with reasonable prices. Since someone will know before they go to a doctor what it will cost them it makes a huge difference to the US.
- anonsivalley652 7y ago
  Emphasis on skilled. Most Americans make less, adjusted for inflation, than they did 40 years ago, they work longer hours, report more stress and are more productive (not necessarily by choice). The average American worker got shafted. Oh, and the American healthcare system costs people twice as much than average developed countries but with worse outcomes. Single-payer would save people money because of the collective negotiating leverage to push back against $100 insulin, $350 Epipens and $20 acetaminophen. Furthermore, the US labor force participation rate never gets measured honestly or discussed because it's crazy.. there are untold millions and millions of men and women who have given up looking work. (Idle, disenfranchised people who don't have a future or families is a recipe for revolution, drug abuse and mass shootings.) Also, with automation, outsourcing and increased net population, there aren't as many good jobs as there were 40 years ago and there too many people for regular, less-skilled jobs.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - refurb 7y ago
    Most Americans make less, adjusted for inflation, than they did 40 years ago Only if you look at salary. If you look at total compensation, it’s grown quite a lot in the US, across income levels, adjusting for inflation.
    - jfim 7y ago
      What other components are there than salary, for the average non-tech worker?
      - refurb 7y ago
        Health insurance, life insurance, 401k match or other retirement benefits, etc.
  - ridewinter 7y ago
    The median income in the US has in fact been on the rise for a long time: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Household_income_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Household_income_in_the_United...
- NightlyDev 7y ago
  Well, that's highly dependendent on what country in Europe you compare it to, as it can go both ways...
- JDiculous 7y ago
  They also have a lot more student loans. Doctors graduate with $300k+ in student debt.

ChuckNorris89 7y ago

>The private doctor is still cheaper than copays/deductibles in the US. Skilled workers in the US also earn way more than their European counterparts.

hannasanarion 7y ago
And unskilled workers earn less. So what?
- wormseed 7y ago
  Not necessarily. One datapoint: Amazon pays fulfilment workers $15/hour in the US, but €11/hour (~$12) in Germany
  - golf1052 7y ago
    How far does $15/hour go in some parts of the US vs €11/hour in some parts of Germany?
  - fzeroracer 7y ago
    I imagine if you took a look at total compensation (vacation, PTO, insurance, maternity leave), stronger labor laws and other societal benefits such as cheaper college, those workers earning €11/hr would probably be able to save a lot more of it compared to their counterpart in the US. And bonus if they get sick, they don't have to worry as much about losing their job and spiraling down into crippling debt.
- sdinsn 7y ago
  > And unskilled workers earn less. Is this actually true?
- the_mitsuhiko 7y ago
  Even accounting for differences in income the cost for private doctor visits don’t make the US system cheaper. Especially because the private doctors need to provide pricing before you go there, there is an actual market with reasonable prices. Since someone will know before they go to a doctor what it will cost them it makes a huge difference to the US.
anonsivalley652 7y ago
Emphasis on skilled. Most Americans make less, adjusted for inflation, than they did 40 years ago, they work longer hours, report more stress and are more productive (not necessarily by choice). The average American worker got shafted. Oh, and the American healthcare system costs people twice as much than average developed countries but with worse outcomes. Single-payer would save people money because of the collective negotiating leverage to push back against $100 insulin, $350 Epipens and $20 acetaminophen. Furthermore, the US labor force participation rate never gets measured honestly or discussed because it's crazy.. there are untold millions and millions of men and women who have given up looking work. (Idle, disenfranchised people who don't have a future or families is a recipe for revolution, drug abuse and mass shootings.) Also, with automation, outsourcing and increased net population, there aren't as many good jobs as there were 40 years ago and there too many people for regular, less-skilled jobs.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- refurb 7y ago
  Most Americans make less, adjusted for inflation, than they did 40 years ago Only if you look at salary. If you look at total compensation, it’s grown quite a lot in the US, across income levels, adjusting for inflation.
  - jfim 7y ago
    What other components are there than salary, for the average non-tech worker?
    - refurb 7y ago
      Health insurance, life insurance, 401k match or other retirement benefits, etc.
- ridewinter 7y ago
  The median income in the US has in fact been on the rise for a long time: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Household_income_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Household_income_in_the_United...
NightlyDev 7y ago
Well, that's highly dependendent on what country in Europe you compare it to, as it can go both ways...
JDiculous 7y ago
They also have a lot more student loans. Doctors graduate with $300k+ in student debt.