6 ms·

The general rule though is that the clients are asking for X, actually need Y, and get delivered Z - isn't it?

ehnto 7y ago
That's often the case. If your agency is part of that discussion then you can provide enormous value to the client from your experience, and hopefully PMs are pulling the developer input up into discussions with clients as well. But then that is your relationship changing, and you can start to address many of the concerns in the article anyway. I guess my point is just that there are certain relationships where it's just not your decision whether or not feature X is a good fit. I wouldn't want people reading this article thinking their company is broken, when it's just a different type of engagement. Sometimes the CEO wants a popup on the homepage, and every single person in the chain between the CEO of the client company and the Developer at the agency agrees that it's a bad idea, but you still have to implement it.
TeMPOraL 7y ago
That depends on who the clients are, and why did they hire you. If you're just a subcontractor in an org run by smart people, it may very well be that they're asking for X, actually need X and expect to get X - they just outsourced the boring work to you.
- BlueTemplar 7y ago
  I'm not sure how smart those managers are - I would assume that the best programmers would steer clear of jobs like these ?
  - ehnto 7y ago
    Why would you think that? The project manager has communicated well with the client and the requirements getting passed along are correct and full. The developers are specialists in their platform, so implementing the feature is no problem. From experience, it's actually a really nice environment to work in. Everyone is good at their job and you don't have to deal with the clients directly.
    - BlueTemplar 7y ago
      Because AFAIK the best programmers also tend to be perhaps over-invested in their work, so that just "doing feature X" won't cut it for them ? Or am wrong ?
btilly 7y ago
Absolutely. https://www.zentao.pm/share/treeswingpm-97.html https://www.zentao.pm/share/treeswingpm-97.html captures the reality very, very well.
- BlueTemplar 7y ago
  Heh, I was specifically thinking of a simplified version of this cartoon that our projects teacher has shown us...
kortilla 7y ago
Depends. In many b2b custom software contexts, the client does really know exactly what they need (e.g. when you’re implementing integration between two products they are already experts of).

That's often the case. If your agency is part of that discussion then you can provide enormous value to the client from your experience, and hopefully PMs are pulling the developer input up into discussions with clients as well. But then that is your relationship changing, and you can start to address many of the concerns in the article anyway. I guess my point is just that there are certain relationships where it's just not your decision whether or not feature X is a good fit. I wouldn't want people reading this article thinking their company is broken, when it's just a different type of engagement. Sometimes the CEO wants a popup on the homepage, and every single person in the chain between the CEO of the client company and the Developer at the agency agrees that it's a bad idea, but you still have to implement it.

TeMPOraL 7y ago

That depends on who the clients are, and why did they hire you. If you're just a subcontractor in an org run by smart people, it may very well be that they're asking for X, actually need X and expect to get X - they just outsourced the boring work to you.

BlueTemplar 7y ago
I'm not sure how smart those managers are - I would assume that the best programmers would steer clear of jobs like these ?
- ehnto 7y ago
  Why would you think that? The project manager has communicated well with the client and the requirements getting passed along are correct and full. The developers are specialists in their platform, so implementing the feature is no problem. From experience, it's actually a really nice environment to work in. Everyone is good at their job and you don't have to deal with the clients directly.
  - BlueTemplar 7y ago
    Because AFAIK the best programmers also tend to be perhaps over-invested in their work, so that just "doing feature X" won't cut it for them ? Or am wrong ?

btilly 7y ago

Absolutely. https://www.zentao.pm/share/treeswingpm-97.html https://www.zentao.pm/share/treeswingpm-97.html captures the reality very, very well.

BlueTemplar 7y ago
Heh, I was specifically thinking of a simplified version of this cartoon that our projects teacher has shown us...

kortilla 7y ago

Depends. In many b2b custom software contexts, the client does really know exactly what they need (e.g. when you’re implementing integration between two products they are already experts of).