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China's role in the U.S. fentanyl epidemic
- Eoan 7y agoIf you think that people use drugs like fentanyl because they are unhappy, rather than because they are not working, then this would fix it: https://pastebin.com/4ukwRxDG https://pastebin.com/4ukwRxDG
- meowface 7y agoAnd what exactly does this have to do with those mass murderers?
- Eoan 7y agoThey knew of a solution that could have fixed this problem, but did not share it — just like you.
- meowface 7y agoWhat's your evidence that they knew of a solution? Or that I do?
- Eoan 7y agoIt's unlikely you read the first line of that document and no further. As for whether they knew of it, it's impossible to prove without asking them, or maybe talking to their attorneys. There is only circumstantial evidence, some of it having to do with timing of events that there is no point in getting in to, since I know it won't make you share that idea. But consider these questions, which you probably have not asked or did not learn enough about those events to ask: Why did Adam Lanza completely destroy his hard drive? He had a printed poster that had his "body counts and weapons used by mass shooting perpetrators" stuff, so it wasn't to hide that. I think he also had or used another computer, that he didn't bother to destroy. What would someone who expected to kill a bunch of children want to hide? And why did he kill himself despite having plenty of ammunition left? Think of what you know of James Holmes. He shot up a movie theater, right? Why didn't he shoot some people he encountered as he was walking out (he answered this to a psychologist: it would be kind of personal to shoot someone you could see). How do any theories about why he shot up the theater fit with him rigging his apartment with various explosive and inflammatory substances, set to go off if someone opened the door in response to loud music, but not set to go off from a timer despite he reportedly even had a remote-control trigger as well and obviously was competent enough to be able to set a timer-based initiation? At the start of the trial for Dzhokhar Tsarnaev, his most famous lawyer, a female, said that, not exact quote, "We know he did it. So why the trial? Because we want to know why." Did we learn why? If so, what was the reason? Does Dzhokhar Tsarnaev's Twitter account provide any reasons why?
- meowface 7y agoUh... you tell me? I could imagine many possible answers to all of those questions.
- Eoan 7y agoJust like superstring theory offers many possible solutions to any theoretical question? If you think whether certain people knew of the linked idea is relevant or important, then you should focus on the most likely answer, not enumerate all possible ones.
- meowface 7y agoWhy is this the most likely answer? Or even an answer you think there is a non-zero percent likelihood of? I don't see any evidence of that. I would think it's relevant and important if I knew of any such evidence, but I don't know of any, and also would probably bet there isn't any.
- ben_w 7y agoThat reads like a Victorian cure-all advert.
- Eoan 7y agoIs that your reason for not sharing it, like the individuals it mentions did not?
- ben_w 7y agoEssentially yes. It makes a very big claim with very little in the way of either justification or clear causal connection.
- Eoan 7y agoI don't even know if Hacker News provides a way to see people who reply to you or the chances of this conversation continuing. I'm a little confused. I can see two main claims in the argument: 1) If people did a certain thing, it would fix most problems. 2) Certain people knew of this solution but did not share it. Which of these is the "very big claim"? I may also be misinterpreting this: >clear causal connection Are you saying that if there was evidence that the listed individuals did know of it, that you would share it? If one of them that's still alive told everyone about that idea, then you would see it as a reason to use that idea? As for the "doing this would fix most problems", how much explanation would convince you to fix it? If it was (arbitrary units) 3 pages of text, that all made sense, would you share it? What if it was 15 pages of text, that you found to be consistent and logical after reading through it? Would you share it, and expect other people to share it?
- ben_w 7y agoClaim 1. As the original link is no longer visible, I’m not going to go into specific details. I advise against reposting something that got flagged in order to try to continue this thread. However I will say this as a general piece of advice on communication. You seem to presume: > that all made sense The problem is that it didn’t make sense to most of the people on here. Communication is not a place of maths-like absolute truth where convincing yourself is sufficient, rather it’s impedance matching of your mind to other people’s minds where the arbiter of success is the people you’re trying to share an idea with. For example, if you’re not familiar with impedance matching, that previous analogy would be a mistake on my part.
- olliej 7y agoUm, American drug companies created the opioid epidemic, and then fueled it with aggressive marketing, kickbacks, and bribery. Fentanyl is a relatively recent addition to a crisis those companies started in the early 90s.
- MeltySmelty 7y agoding ding ding. what a crap article.
- Mountain_Skies 7y agoCould someone explain what is incorrect about parent's statement for it to deserve downvotes? It seems to be in line with the prevailing narrative of the past decade or so.
- nate_meurer 7y agoMaybe starting out a comment with "um..." as though everyone else is stupid, and then following up by merely restating the prevailing narrative, which has little to do with the assertions made in the article. Maybe that's a reason for some of the disagreement.
- saber6 7y agoIt is a MVC: Minimal Value Comment
- happytoexplain 7y agoThere are many ways in which a post can have low, or even negative, value. Being "incorrect" is only one, and a relatively rare one.
- Eoan 7y agoJingoism
- nate_meurer 7y agoSo, do you have anything substantive to say about the article? Do you disagree with anything in it? Did you notice that the article actually agrees with you?: > And so, when we're talking about who's to blame for the fentanyl crisis, we've got to start at home. Why is the demand so high? But in terms of China, and that's what I really focused on in my book in large part, China is not only doing a poor job stopping fentanyl from getting exported to the US, they are even encouraging it in a lot of ways, through the tax code and all these complicated ways that add up to a really troubling situation. Do you disagree with any of that? Do you believe that China's massive and uncontrolled supply had no effect on the opioid epidemic?
- mindslight 7y agoThe author left out the necessary first step, which is the local government preventing Americans from straightforwardly buying opiates in stores, where incentives are aligned for utility and purity. The grey/black market only exists as a direct result of criminalization, rather than treating addiction as a personal health problem.
- onetimemanytime 7y agoHi, can I please have a dose of fentanyl? Sure, how will you be paying for it sir? https://www.drugabuse.gov/drugs-abuse/fentanyl https://www.drugabuse.gov/drugs-abuse/fentanyl
- firethief 7y agoWeb page is vibrating up and down. I half-expected a little airplane chasing the mouse pointer.
- carapace 7y agoSee also "Opium Wars". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opium_Wars https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opium_Wars Don't do drugs.
- agumonkey 7y ago> Don't do drugs. Don't get prescribed drugs -- 2000s variant
- carapace 7y ago(Random aside: For like three years I thought your username was arguemonkey, with an 'r' & 'e'. Derp) :-) That's an insidious aspect here: people trust doctors, the drug dealers found an angle that blindsided the system.
- DyslexicAtheist 7y agooh boy ... I have read it the same way too until just now I even thought what an edgy name every time I came across a comment - not once bothering to re-read ... human brains are terrible :D
- carapace 7y ago:D
- agumonkey 7y agoI hope this wasn't a reflection of me being obnoxious
- carapace 7y agoHa! No. I don't pay a lot of attention to usernames. FWIW, my impression of the quality of your posts is generally high.
- AnimalMuppet 7y ago
- corporateslave5 7y agoThe ones truly at fault are the doctors. They follow “procedure”, which says that a patient under pain is treated with opiates. And so, to avoid any mal practice, they prescribe. And the patient has been told that doctors are the smartest, most prestigious individuals in our society. What’s not to trust? What do we do when societal structures built upon reputation and legitimacy fall victim to profit taking and legal threats? There’s no failure mechanism when a reputed institution fails from the inside.
- dependenttypes 7y ago> which says that a patient under pain is treated with opiates Do you have a better solution? For some people the pain can be unbearable.
- ssivark 7y ago> Do you have a better solution? For some people the pain can be unbearable. Fair point, but the same (edit: “unbearable” cost) applies to wasted lives. I don’t claim to have a general answer, but it’s important to keep the pros and cons in context. Unfortunately one half of the balance sheet is an externality, and our incentive system is set to exploit those ruthlessly.
- dependenttypes 7y agoWhat applies to wasted lives?
- gherkinnn 7y agoFor some opiates are might very well be the right tool. Just as you said. There are some questions to which I’m in no position to give an answer: - is a little temporary pain really problem? - are there less invasive measures? - what preventative measures do we have? - are opiates just an easy way to cover up symptoms that could/should be treated properly?
- 7y ago
- mnm1 7y agoBlaming China for our failed drug war and idiotic drug policies is like blaming gun companies for WWII. The only way to help opioid addicts is to help them improve their lives while providing low cost, safe opioids to them until they are ready to quit. If doctors in the US could prescribe appropriate opioids for addiction, if we had safe use sites, and if we helped people find jobs, community, and purpose, we wouldn't have this epidemic. Until we're ready to accept that and while this idiotic drug war continues, thinking that drugs can be stopped despite over a hundred years of evidence to the contrary, people will continue to die in masses. And the only people that deserve the blame are the police, DEA, and lawmakers who are murdering addicts in their crusade against something they are too stupid to understand. The drug war is a crime against humanity, one that will likely go unpunished like so many others.
- nate_meurer 7y agoI strongly agree with everything you just said, but is there possibly some benefit in also trying to control the huge flow of fentanyl from China? That's really all TFA is saying.
- DyslexicAtheist 7y agoI think this is literally impossible because of costs to produce / distribute fentanyl compared to opioids. There will always be people who are skint enough to buy the cheapest thing they can find and there will always be bad apples greedy enough to stretch their produce with Fentanyl. Then there are those that mean well and spike their produce successfully for a few runs, ... forgetting that it takes only 1 mistake and many will be dead as a result.
- mnm1 7y agoYes, totally, but the only way to do that successfully is to regulate supply at home: legalization. Anything short of that will not control fentanyl from China or anywhere else, not even decriminalization. Black markets or even gray markets cannot be controlled. I think the last hundred years or so of prohibition has proven that over and over again. This applies to drugs, guns, etc.
- Stierlitz 7y ago"Tracing the US opioid crisis to its roots" https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-019-02686-2 https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-019-02686-2
- andrekandre 7y agofrom you link, the key stand out paragraph for me was... > Because many doctors are in private practice, they can benefit financially by increasing the volume of patients that they see, as well as by ensuring patient satisfaction, which can incentivize the overprescription of pain medication.
- whiddershins 7y agoWhat I think is odd is that it is so outrageous and conspiratorial sounding to even consider malicious intent on the part of the Chinese government. I’m not saying I have any idea what the real impactful decisions that fuel this problem even are, much less who is making them, triple much less what their intention is. I’m not sure it is clear what is really fueling the opioid epidemic, many theories of causation are plausible. But it seems hopelessly naive to discard outright the possibility that aggressive intention by the Chinese Government is a factor here. Countries have done much, much, worse to each other (and their own people) in pursuit of various strategic objectives throughout all of recorded history. Why should we flat out assume that has somehow fundamentally changed?
- RealityVoid 7y agoPossibly because of a lack of obvious advantage this would bring to China. I can not fathom what they could hope to gain by planning this.
- frozenport 7y agoIronic reversal of a supposed century of humiliation. A weakening of a hostile hegemony?
- mperham 7y agoYou should read about the Opium Wars. Britain literally went to war with China so they could sell opium to the Chinese. Pretty clear parallels here.
- dntbnmpls 7y agoThe parallel would be US = Britain and China = China. US is running a trade deficit with china like britain was running a trade deficit with china in the 1800s. If the US invaded china and forced china to buy opium to offset the trade imbalance, then the parallel would apply. I don't remember china invading the US. And china isn't forcing drugs on the US, no more than mexico or south america is forcing drugs on the US. There is demand for drugs in the US. That is the problem. And the slow but recent drug legalization around the country and the glamorization of drugs in the media isn't going to help.
- pierman 7y agoI recommend this podcast if your interested in learning more: "Puzzled by rising drug deaths at raves in the United States, author and investigative journalist Ben Westhoff set out to find answers. A Google search for “Buy fentanyl in China” took him down a rabbit hole that led to a face-to-face meeting with the CEO of a company selling fentanyl on Skype “all day long” and a drug lab in Shanghai. Ben tells Jordan the remarkable story." https://supchina.com/podcast/chasing-the-dragon-fentanyl-china-and-the-opioid-crisis/ https://supchina.com/podcast/chasing-the-dragon-fentanyl-chi...
- xorfish 7y agoSwitzerland had a open heroin epidemic around 30 years ago. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3UYmaalotK0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3UYmaalotK0 Repression only made it worse and I can only imagine how much worse it would have been with the possibility that every shot may have something far more potent. Maybe the important bit is also how it was resolved: https://www.thelocal.ch/20120531/3427 https://www.thelocal.ch/20120531/3427 In short, save injection sites, controlled diaphin or other opioid replacement therapies made the life of addicts livable and reduced the harm that happened.
- lazylizard 7y agoYep. China makes all that but they dont have an opioid crisis. USA doesn't make the stuff yet has an opioid crisis. Naturally we don't ask why the USA cannot police opioid use like the chinese... Why doesnt say, singapore have an opiod crisis? China won't export to singapore? Hmmmmmmmm
- teekert 7y agoA Friend got a swathe of opioids for a cut in her thumb (in a US hospital), "Why?" she asked, turns out the hospital is sponsored by the producers. Buy hey! Nothing to see here! It's them Chiners!!
- Perenti 7y agoWhat I find interesting is that there is so little discussion of the demand for fentanyl. I know it's convenient to blame doctors and drug companies, but why is there such a high demand for fentanyl as a drug of abuse/intoxication in the USA compared to other countries? By the way, I have fentanyl patch prescriptions, and have done for years, due to medical issues. I use maybe 7-10 doses per year, with no real urge to take more. I can see how it can be appealing to people, but there has to be something in US society that makes fentanyl and other synthetic opioids so enticing.