4 ms·

I must admit I always feel weird when I see numbers like that mentioned for software engineers. In Germany a more reasonable number with a few years of experien

I must admit I always feel weird when I see numbers like that mentioned for software engineers. In Germany a more reasonable number with a few years of experience might be in the €50-55k ballpark. Granted, the cost of living is significantly lower in most cities here than it is in the bay area, but still it just feels... weird. Edit: Fixed a typo.

fossuser 7y ago
I think Europe (and the UK) undervalue software engineers. At least in the UK this seems like a cultural thing where management is high status/high value and engineers are low status/low value. I think the US generally gets this right (at least in silicon valley), but it could partly be because the US has some extremely valuable software companies that operate on a global stage that aren't really present elsewhere. Really great software engineers can generate insane value at a great company with a good business.
- ummonk 7y ago
  From the numbers I've seen, Zurich is the one exception that pays comparably to the Bay Area, NYC, and Seattle.
  - Cu3PO42 7y ago
    Unfortunately Zurich may also compare on cost of living. Maybe that's all there is to it, but I somehow doubt that.
    - ummonk 7y ago
      Yeah, but it's better than say London which compares on cost of living but pays abysmally.
- heartbeats 7y ago
  There's only really one place that can have these big tech companies, and that is the US. What technology companies of note do the UK have? It's just stupid nonsense like "writing spreadsheets for the local government" and minor web development. In tech, it really is US vs. ROW
  - Cu3PO42 7y ago
    ARM, for example? But let's assume for a second that the only relevant companies are US-based. A lot of them also hire in other countries and it is my understanding that compensation isn't what it is in the US either.
    - fossuser 7y ago
      I think American companies generally do have a lot better comp in places like London compared to the non American software companies there. I’m not 100% sure - I have less insight into this.
      - Cu3PO42 7y ago
        I can't speak to the job market in the UK, but in Germany there doesn't seem to be a great difference based on anecdotal evidence from friends. There's absolutely a chance this is incorrect as well, because discussing wages is still somewhat against societal norms here (which is stupid in my opinion).
    - heartbeats 7y ago
      ARM have offices all over the world and are owned by the Japanese. The European "tech industry" is and remains a joke. American companies also have offices all over the world. For example, Google have several offices in Africa. This does however not mean that Ghana has a booming tech industry, it just means that sometimes you need domestic offices for minor regulatory reasons.
      - Cu3PO42 7y ago
        SoftBank only bought ARM in 2016, they are by origin very much from the UK and I don't think anyone is going to argue that ARM wasn't relevant before 2016. DeepMind was also founded in the UK and later bought by Google. Their HQ remains in London. DeepL, who are providing a much better translation product than Google or Microsoft by many accounts, are a German company. Spotify, which I'm sure needs no explanation, is a Swedish company. While it is certainly true that the US pays better, I think you need to re-evaluate your position that noone else is creating good or valuable products.
- Cu3PO42 7y ago
  I realise this is tangential to the original topic, but this notion that the UK is not a part of Europe (and therefore mentioned separately) seems really weird to me. They can leave the EU as much as they want, but it doesn't change the fact that physically they're still in Europe. Is this because of some perceived notion of cultural differences? Because if we're starting to draw lines based on that we probably need to divide mainland Europe into a bunch of separate parts as well.
  - fossuser 7y ago
    I only said it that way in an attempt to be clear because they left the EU (and I’ve heard people use Europe to mean EU).
    - Cu3PO42 7y ago
      I see, thank you for clarifying. It's true that some people do use Europe to mean EU, I hadn't taken that possibility into account. In my experience, this is mostly done in sentences like "In Europe something or another is allowed/forbidden/... (by law)", but I can definitely see where you're coming from.
  - learc83 7y ago
    It's because America has (and has historically had) a closer relationship with the UK than with other European countries. The British see themselves as different than the rest of Europe as evidenced by sayings like "on the continent", so it's natural for us to pick some of that up.
  - chillacy 7y ago
    Mexico and Canada are technically part of America (North) and Russia is in Asia, yet most people don’t say that Canadians are Americans and Russians are Asians. One of the great funs of language.
    - BlueTemplar 7y ago
      Russia is mostly in Europe, population-wise.
biglost 7y ago
Here in Chile, swe coworkers earn about 25k after tax if you are not a manager, boss or the like.

fossuser 7y ago

I think Europe (and the UK) undervalue software engineers. At least in the UK this seems like a cultural thing where management is high status/high value and engineers are low status/low value. I think the US generally gets this right (at least in silicon valley), but it could partly be because the US has some extremely valuable software companies that operate on a global stage that aren't really present elsewhere. Really great software engineers can generate insane value at a great company with a good business.

ummonk 7y ago
From the numbers I've seen, Zurich is the one exception that pays comparably to the Bay Area, NYC, and Seattle.
- Cu3PO42 7y ago
  Unfortunately Zurich may also compare on cost of living. Maybe that's all there is to it, but I somehow doubt that.
  - ummonk 7y ago
    Yeah, but it's better than say London which compares on cost of living but pays abysmally.
heartbeats 7y ago
There's only really one place that can have these big tech companies, and that is the US. What technology companies of note do the UK have? It's just stupid nonsense like "writing spreadsheets for the local government" and minor web development. In tech, it really is US vs. ROW
- Cu3PO42 7y ago
  ARM, for example? But let's assume for a second that the only relevant companies are US-based. A lot of them also hire in other countries and it is my understanding that compensation isn't what it is in the US either.
  - fossuser 7y ago
    I think American companies generally do have a lot better comp in places like London compared to the non American software companies there. I’m not 100% sure - I have less insight into this.
    - Cu3PO42 7y ago
      I can't speak to the job market in the UK, but in Germany there doesn't seem to be a great difference based on anecdotal evidence from friends. There's absolutely a chance this is incorrect as well, because discussing wages is still somewhat against societal norms here (which is stupid in my opinion).
  - heartbeats 7y ago
    ARM have offices all over the world and are owned by the Japanese. The European "tech industry" is and remains a joke. American companies also have offices all over the world. For example, Google have several offices in Africa. This does however not mean that Ghana has a booming tech industry, it just means that sometimes you need domestic offices for minor regulatory reasons.
    - Cu3PO42 7y ago
      SoftBank only bought ARM in 2016, they are by origin very much from the UK and I don't think anyone is going to argue that ARM wasn't relevant before 2016. DeepMind was also founded in the UK and later bought by Google. Their HQ remains in London. DeepL, who are providing a much better translation product than Google or Microsoft by many accounts, are a German company. Spotify, which I'm sure needs no explanation, is a Swedish company. While it is certainly true that the US pays better, I think you need to re-evaluate your position that noone else is creating good or valuable products.
Cu3PO42 7y ago
I realise this is tangential to the original topic, but this notion that the UK is not a part of Europe (and therefore mentioned separately) seems really weird to me. They can leave the EU as much as they want, but it doesn't change the fact that physically they're still in Europe. Is this because of some perceived notion of cultural differences? Because if we're starting to draw lines based on that we probably need to divide mainland Europe into a bunch of separate parts as well.
- fossuser 7y ago
  I only said it that way in an attempt to be clear because they left the EU (and I’ve heard people use Europe to mean EU).
  - Cu3PO42 7y ago
    I see, thank you for clarifying. It's true that some people do use Europe to mean EU, I hadn't taken that possibility into account. In my experience, this is mostly done in sentences like "In Europe something or another is allowed/forbidden/... (by law)", but I can definitely see where you're coming from.
- learc83 7y ago
  It's because America has (and has historically had) a closer relationship with the UK than with other European countries. The British see themselves as different than the rest of Europe as evidenced by sayings like "on the continent", so it's natural for us to pick some of that up.
- chillacy 7y ago
  Mexico and Canada are technically part of America (North) and Russia is in Asia, yet most people don’t say that Canadians are Americans and Russians are Asians. One of the great funs of language.
  - BlueTemplar 7y ago
    Russia is mostly in Europe, population-wise.

biglost 7y ago

Here in Chile, swe coworkers earn about 25k after tax if you are not a manager, boss or the like.