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In my admittedly limited experience, there's one way to avoid such nonsensical interviews - run away from bureaucracy. Seek smaller organizations (startups in p

In my admittedly limited experience, there's one way to avoid such nonsensical interviews - run away from bureaucracy. Seek smaller organizations (startups in particular) and if you're lucky enough to have a minimally cross-disciplinary background, you can seek out niche organizations where you'll interview with technical specialists who'll ask reasonable questions that are actually related to your work and your interviewers won't be saddled with "standardized" managment pleasing bullshit. One of the biggest problems I see with modern tech (and large industry in general) is this ridiculous idea that MBAs can standardize all processes across all departments across all industries. This is a source of needless pain and waste - but I suppose it keeps execs happy when they can reduce every metric to a nice little [bullshit] number. Interviewing at FAANG is a case in point. I've never in my life had to implement a recursive memory optimized underwater red black tree balancing algorithm, and it's insulting to be told I'm not a good enough programmer if I can't pass your totally contrived white board problem. Who the hell are these people even selecting for with these kinds of questions? Do they understand how much talent they're throwing away? In any case, I have a strong suspicion that, aside from compensation, working for FAANG is hugely overrated. And that's not just sour grapes talk - mountains of red tape, processes upon processes, overwork and burnout, and best of all, you get to spend your best years infecting society with the cancer that is adtech.

andreilys 7y ago
“ mountains of red tape, processes upon processes, overwork and burnout, and best of all, you get to spend your best years infecting society with the cancer that is adtech.” Your mileage will vary depending on the team you land on.
Quekid5 7y ago
I agree on small orgs, but... recommending startups is a bit iffy, IMO. DGMW, startups can be great, but if you're just a good programmer wanting a stable job, then that startup job is not the job for you. However, you could be a huge contributor and positive influence in a small org... and it's possible to gain a lot of life satisfaction that way[0]. Plus, your employer actually knows you and understands the value you bring, etc. etc. Yes, you probably will not earn as much as you could by indirectly peddling ads, tracking users, or whatever, but personal fulfillment matters... at least it does to me... and I hire people who feel the same way. [0] It sounds weird, but studies have shown that giving people agency (as they must be in a small org), setting their own goals, etc. has a positive influence on their well-being and productivity.
- BlueTemplar 7y ago
  As the GP says : > The archetypal software engineer is socially disengaged, anti-structure, and highly idealistic. This kind of person would probably refuse a FAANG / GAFAM job, even if asked for it!
- mnm1 7y ago
  I only disagree with "as they must be in a small org". I only wish that was true, but my experience says otherwise. A small company might give one agency or it might not. Or it can do both over time. With a dozen people in the company you'd think it'd be wise, but the latest management trends and compensation procedures prevent it. In other words, we build what the boss wants and have zero incentive and time to work on anything else. In fact, if there is time, I actively avoid any tasks not delegated by management so as not to appear like I'm working on non sanctioned things. But mostly, the time just expands to fill the work. Or the other way around. There is zero incentive to try to change this or do anything not scheduled as it has been shown it'll not be appreciated but with empty words.
  - Quekid5 7y ago
    That's a very fair point. I can only speak from my own experience on this. It's a great observation that authoritarian tendencies can probably arise in any size of organization. (I would advise getting out -- if you can, financially, etc. -- if you do not have self-determination. It's incredibly soul-destroying in the long term. Best of luck.)
- neilv 7y ago
  I'm principal-ish engineer level, and, after being tempted to go to a FAANG, but turned off by the hazing rituals (and other behavior of some of them), I ended up choosing a startup a few months ago. Even in best case I can imagine for eventual equity liquidation for the startup, the startup pays only about 1/3 what Google would, and the stress is high at times-- but I've already made crucial contributions to the company's success, my coworkers didn't try to haze me or play other arrogant power games during the recruiting process, and there's a genuine sense of don't-be-evil.
jrempel 7y ago
In my experience, startup interviews are even less personal and more leetcode based than FAANG. aka solve leetcode hard in 40m on a whiteboard
- AlexCoventry 7y ago
  My experience has been the opposite of yours.
- hderms 7y ago
  In my experience interviewing people for small companies, I learn towards problems that aren't particularly hard but that demonstrate basic engineering fundamentals. I do value questions that give some insight into the interviewee's thought processes, but it's not necessary to give them a leetcode style question to get there. Startups that try to emulate Google hiring process are pretty clearly shooting themselves in the foot. Thoughtlessly copying successful companies is one of the banes of our industry. Some companies are solving problems which might demand a higher level of algorithmic rigor in the interview, but it's always worked out for me on the hiring side to consciously avoid Google style questions. I don't think I've given the thumbs up to any truly 'bad hires' for many years, and I've given the thumbs up to many.
- VRay 7y ago
  I interviewed at some startups from the HackerNews "Who's Hiring?" threads, and I had positive experiences with them. There wasn't much Leetcode BS, it was mostly talking with human beings. (Unfortunately, it turned out I was overqualified and overconfident for the jobs I applied to.. I didn't know that was even a possibility, haha.)
hnruss 7y ago
Agreed. I've never had much difficulty finding software development work at smaller companies. If I have the required skills that they are looking for, I'm usually confident that I'll get an interview. An interview at a smaller company is likely to be much shorter and easier than the algorithm-based interviews at larger companies. The chance of an offer is also much higher. The pay at smaller companies is still good enough for you to live comfortably, even at the entry-level. I worked a software development internship half-time while going to college, and it was easier and more enjoyable than all of the non-programming jobs that I did before that. If you can't get a job at the companies that you want, you have no choice but to settle for something else until you have the experience and knowledge that is required. Thinking some more on it, there is another (long shot) way to get hired at a large company: start your own software company that is eventually acquired by a large company.
- eyegor 7y ago
  > start your own software company that is eventually acquired by a large company Just a heads up, that isn't how it works. If you've built a product that's good enough to be turned into a company and be bought by google/ms/etc, they don't want to hire you. They want your product. If they hired you, you'd steal away their workers to make another startup. At least that's the usual line of thinking. Source: this happened to 3 friends of mine, whose companies were purchased by Google, Amazon, and Microsoft. Working around startup folk, this is a common story.
  - chrisweekly 7y ago
    Too quick to generalize from your exp; brother founded a company w product good enough to get noticed, but it was an aquihire situation; FB wanted him and his cofounder, not the product/IP.
Papirola 7y ago
> you get to spend your best years infecting society with the cancer that is adtech. spot on.
bobbytran 7y ago
I've made a career out of working for and with smaller companies. My paycheck is very good and I'm always learning new/different technologies. Most smaller companies dont have these sorts of interviews. Most of mine have been technical in nature and some involved take-home projects, which were then discussed. I've also avoided the dreaded non-compete clauses that FAANG employees need to sign and work on my own side-business with no issues.
- mifreewil 7y ago
  Non-competes are unenforceable in California
  - ghaff 7y ago
    Presumably he meant IP ownership or something along those lines. To his other point, take homes have their own problems, especially for anything beyond the most trivial 2-3 task. That said, there are certainly many jobs where you want to see concrete evidence of ability. I'm not going to hire someone for a job that involves a lot of writing without seeing some writing samples. And if they don't have anything they can show me for confidentiality reasons, I'm going to ask them to produce something.
mnm1 7y ago
You mean there is any other reason to work at FAANG other than compensation? I find that hard to believe except for truly exceptional outlier cases.
mixmastamyk 7y ago
What? Startups are the worst at cargo cult interviews, they think they need to copy the big ones when they often don’t.
- buzzkillington 7y ago
  "Startup" and startup are two very different things. If the office has a ping pong table, run the fuck away.
- runawaybottle 7y ago
  We live in a copy-cat world, it’s endemic in every facet of our society. Look at the NBA, every team now shoots 3s because it worked well for the Golden State Warriors, even when they don’t have the same type of team where that strategy makes sense.
senordevnyc 7y ago
In any case, I have a strong suspicion that, aside from compensation, working for FAANG is hugely overrated. And that's not just sour grapes talk - mountains of red tape, processes upon processes, overwork and burnout, and best of all, you get to spend your best years infecting society with the cancer that is adtech. It’s a little weird to say “other than comp”, given that almost no one would work for their employer, whether startup or FAANG, if they weren’t getting paid for it. And the difference isn’t small. Multiple startups in NYC offered me comp of around $200k, while the public tech companies were all in the $400k to $500k+ range. Additionally, I think overwork and burnout are much worse at startups vs big tech. The offer I took pays more than twice as much as the startups and the people on my team are in the office for 40 hours at best, work from home as needed, no emails or slack on evenings or weekends, and take 4-5 weeks of vacation. It’s definitely not the grind that startups are. Your complaints about bureaucracy and ad tech are fair, which is why I went with Square over G or FB. I like their business model and they’re a fraction of the size of the bigger tech companies, but still pay much better than most startups.

andreilys 7y ago

“ mountains of red tape, processes upon processes, overwork and burnout, and best of all, you get to spend your best years infecting society with the cancer that is adtech.” Your mileage will vary depending on the team you land on.

Quekid5 7y ago

I agree on small orgs, but... recommending startups is a bit iffy, IMO. DGMW, startups can be great, but if you're just a good programmer wanting a stable job, then that startup job is not the job for you. However, you could be a huge contributor and positive influence in a small org... and it's possible to gain a lot of life satisfaction that way[0]. Plus, your employer actually knows you and understands the value you bring, etc. etc. Yes, you probably will not earn as much as you could by indirectly peddling ads, tracking users, or whatever, but personal fulfillment matters... at least it does to me... and I hire people who feel the same way. [0] It sounds weird, but studies have shown that giving people agency (as they must be in a small org), setting their own goals, etc. has a positive influence on their well-being and productivity.

BlueTemplar 7y ago
As the GP says : > The archetypal software engineer is socially disengaged, anti-structure, and highly idealistic. This kind of person would probably refuse a FAANG / GAFAM job, even if asked for it!
mnm1 7y ago
I only disagree with "as they must be in a small org". I only wish that was true, but my experience says otherwise. A small company might give one agency or it might not. Or it can do both over time. With a dozen people in the company you'd think it'd be wise, but the latest management trends and compensation procedures prevent it. In other words, we build what the boss wants and have zero incentive and time to work on anything else. In fact, if there is time, I actively avoid any tasks not delegated by management so as not to appear like I'm working on non sanctioned things. But mostly, the time just expands to fill the work. Or the other way around. There is zero incentive to try to change this or do anything not scheduled as it has been shown it'll not be appreciated but with empty words.
- Quekid5 7y ago
  That's a very fair point. I can only speak from my own experience on this. It's a great observation that authoritarian tendencies can probably arise in any size of organization. (I would advise getting out -- if you can, financially, etc. -- if you do not have self-determination. It's incredibly soul-destroying in the long term. Best of luck.)
neilv 7y ago
I'm principal-ish engineer level, and, after being tempted to go to a FAANG, but turned off by the hazing rituals (and other behavior of some of them), I ended up choosing a startup a few months ago. Even in best case I can imagine for eventual equity liquidation for the startup, the startup pays only about 1/3 what Google would, and the stress is high at times-- but I've already made crucial contributions to the company's success, my coworkers didn't try to haze me or play other arrogant power games during the recruiting process, and there's a genuine sense of don't-be-evil.

jrempel 7y ago

In my experience, startup interviews are even less personal and more leetcode based than FAANG. aka solve leetcode hard in 40m on a whiteboard

AlexCoventry 7y ago
My experience has been the opposite of yours.
hderms 7y ago
In my experience interviewing people for small companies, I learn towards problems that aren't particularly hard but that demonstrate basic engineering fundamentals. I do value questions that give some insight into the interviewee's thought processes, but it's not necessary to give them a leetcode style question to get there. Startups that try to emulate Google hiring process are pretty clearly shooting themselves in the foot. Thoughtlessly copying successful companies is one of the banes of our industry. Some companies are solving problems which might demand a higher level of algorithmic rigor in the interview, but it's always worked out for me on the hiring side to consciously avoid Google style questions. I don't think I've given the thumbs up to any truly 'bad hires' for many years, and I've given the thumbs up to many.
VRay 7y ago
I interviewed at some startups from the HackerNews "Who's Hiring?" threads, and I had positive experiences with them. There wasn't much Leetcode BS, it was mostly talking with human beings. (Unfortunately, it turned out I was overqualified and overconfident for the jobs I applied to.. I didn't know that was even a possibility, haha.)

hnruss 7y ago

Agreed. I've never had much difficulty finding software development work at smaller companies. If I have the required skills that they are looking for, I'm usually confident that I'll get an interview. An interview at a smaller company is likely to be much shorter and easier than the algorithm-based interviews at larger companies. The chance of an offer is also much higher. The pay at smaller companies is still good enough for you to live comfortably, even at the entry-level. I worked a software development internship half-time while going to college, and it was easier and more enjoyable than all of the non-programming jobs that I did before that. If you can't get a job at the companies that you want, you have no choice but to settle for something else until you have the experience and knowledge that is required. Thinking some more on it, there is another (long shot) way to get hired at a large company: start your own software company that is eventually acquired by a large company.

eyegor 7y ago
> start your own software company that is eventually acquired by a large company Just a heads up, that isn't how it works. If you've built a product that's good enough to be turned into a company and be bought by google/ms/etc, they don't want to hire you. They want your product. If they hired you, you'd steal away their workers to make another startup. At least that's the usual line of thinking. Source: this happened to 3 friends of mine, whose companies were purchased by Google, Amazon, and Microsoft. Working around startup folk, this is a common story.
- chrisweekly 7y ago
  Too quick to generalize from your exp; brother founded a company w product good enough to get noticed, but it was an aquihire situation; FB wanted him and his cofounder, not the product/IP.

Papirola 7y ago

> you get to spend your best years infecting society with the cancer that is adtech. spot on.

bobbytran 7y ago

I've made a career out of working for and with smaller companies. My paycheck is very good and I'm always learning new/different technologies. Most smaller companies dont have these sorts of interviews. Most of mine have been technical in nature and some involved take-home projects, which were then discussed. I've also avoided the dreaded non-compete clauses that FAANG employees need to sign and work on my own side-business with no issues.

mifreewil 7y ago
Non-competes are unenforceable in California
- ghaff 7y ago
  Presumably he meant IP ownership or something along those lines. To his other point, take homes have their own problems, especially for anything beyond the most trivial 2-3 task. That said, there are certainly many jobs where you want to see concrete evidence of ability. I'm not going to hire someone for a job that involves a lot of writing without seeing some writing samples. And if they don't have anything they can show me for confidentiality reasons, I'm going to ask them to produce something.

mnm1 7y ago

You mean there is any other reason to work at FAANG other than compensation? I find that hard to believe except for truly exceptional outlier cases.

mixmastamyk 7y ago

What? Startups are the worst at cargo cult interviews, they think they need to copy the big ones when they often don’t.

buzzkillington 7y ago
"Startup" and startup are two very different things. If the office has a ping pong table, run the fuck away.
runawaybottle 7y ago
We live in a copy-cat world, it’s endemic in every facet of our society. Look at the NBA, every team now shoots 3s because it worked well for the Golden State Warriors, even when they don’t have the same type of team where that strategy makes sense.

senordevnyc 7y ago

In any case, I have a strong suspicion that, aside from compensation, working for FAANG is hugely overrated. And that's not just sour grapes talk - mountains of red tape, processes upon processes, overwork and burnout, and best of all, you get to spend your best years infecting society with the cancer that is adtech. It’s a little weird to say “other than comp”, given that almost no one would work for their employer, whether startup or FAANG, if they weren’t getting paid for it. And the difference isn’t small. Multiple startups in NYC offered me comp of around $200k, while the public tech companies were all in the $400k to $500k+ range. Additionally, I think overwork and burnout are much worse at startups vs big tech. The offer I took pays more than twice as much as the startups and the people on my team are in the office for 40 hours at best, work from home as needed, no emails or slack on evenings or weekends, and take 4-5 weeks of vacation. It’s definitely not the grind that startups are. Your complaints about bureaucracy and ad tech are fair, which is why I went with Square over G or FB. I like their business model and they’re a fraction of the size of the bigger tech companies, but still pay much better than most startups.