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Passionate kissing is not a human universal (2015)
- INTPenis 7y agoDidn't work for me, had to use the google cache version.[1] 1. https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:rkHSE4Dp5sIJ:https://hraf.yale.edu/romantic-or-disgusting-passionate-kissing-is-not-a-human-universal/+&cd=1&hl=sv&ct=clnk&gl=se&client=firefox-b-d https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:rkHSE4...
- userbinator 7y ago&client=firefox-b-d&hl=sv&gl=se Just an FYI if you didn't know, be careful when sharing links to check that they don't disclose more information about you than you'd like.
- Johnny555 7y agoJust curious what that's disclosing, his browser? Anything else?
- hhanesand 7y agoGuessing those last two parameters are languages. I don't see the issue, but I commonly trim tracking strings off too.
- ta999999171 7y agoFor the layperson reading, for articles, this is usually anything after the ? in a URL.
- Johnny555 7y agoThat's not a good rule of thumb since often the unique identifier you're interested in is a query arg, so if you strip of everything after the ?, you're left with nothing. like the URL above, all you'll have left is: https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search
- userbinator 7y agoYes, there's no real general rule (see HN articles for instance) but "if I omit these parts of the URL, I get the same content" is usually a safe bet.
- enjoyyourlife 7y agoWayback Machine: https://web.archive.org/web/20200214235741/https://hraf.yale.edu/romantic-or-disgusting-passionate-kissing-is-not-a-human-universal/ https://web.archive.org/web/20200214235741/https://hraf.yale...
- throwaway41968 7y ago...there are people who thought it was?
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- crispinb 7y agoThat was my reaction too. It would never have occurred to me to assume this one particular custom was universal.
- themoat 7y agoThis is kind of a minor reason to leave a smug comment. By what age should a person give deep thought into shows of romantic affection in cultures they've previously not considered?
- throwaway41968 7y agoAt what age should one be exposed to different cultures at all so they learn that everything they've experienced so far isn't an absolute constant of human nature? Pretty early I'd say.
- themoat 7y agoI lived in a couple third world countries where grown adults asked if we had cats in the United States. Should I look down on them for not knowing something about my culture? Or do we have different concerns in our lives in different parts of the world? I'm not saying that being culturally aware is not good for a person. I'm saying it's not a sign of being better than others. It's essentially the same as me memorizing brain teasers when I was 12. Neat, but not the type of thing to brag about.
- crispinb 7y agoWho is looking down on anyone? You get to that conclusion by making the least charitable gloss available in your original comment. My own reaction to the article was surprise that anyone thought kissing was a human universal because it never occurred to me that it was. This was pre-reflective on my part (I had never given any thought to kissing at all). It wasn't an outcome of any exercise in cultural awareness, or thinking thereon. I have no idea whether @throwaway41968's comment was intended in my way or was indeed 'smug' as you say. But you don't know either, and it's a disservice to conversation to assume the worst. If I took your interpretive tack, then I would assume you chose the interpretation you did because you enjoy scrapping on the net and calling people 'smug' etc. Would that be justifiable or useful to the conversation? I think not.
- big_chungus 7y agoWell yeah, no kidding. I was raised American but still never got the appeal of the "spit-swapping" variety; It always struck me as disgusting, though I don't mind normal "on-the-lips" type. For some reason, people expect that everyone likes that sort of thing and think I'm weird for not wanting to.
- fao_ 7y agoI do find the particular behaviour weird, but then I haven't experienced it properly, I've never dated anyone that's been into it!
- 1000units 7y agoIt objectively makes you weird. Sex itself is literally slimey and gross but also very pleasant.
- big_chungus 7y agoThere are physical reasons for that; reproductive organs have tons of extra nerves to make it so. That's not true of mouths; the reaction would have to be psychological. Tongues are there to taste food.
- mrami 7y agoHands, lips, tip of tongue. "Mouthfeel" is as important to taste as flavor. Lips aren't for tasting either, why so many nerves? https://www.quora.com/Which-is-most-sensitive-part-of-the-human-body https://www.quora.com/Which-is-most-sensitive-part-of-the-hu...
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- rom-antics 7y ago>the global ethnographic evidence suggests that [kissing] is common in only 46% (77) of the cultures sampled Now this is interesting. I live in the US where kissing is a big part of the culture, but I've never personally liked it. I like women and romance, I enjoy sex obviously, but I never "got" kissing. Ever since my first kiss at ~15 years old, I always assumed something was wrong with me.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- AareyBaba 7y agoFrom a topological view, kissing creates one long tube with two arseholes at either ends.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- 93po 7y agoIf there was one comment I could use to describe HN, this would be it
- yencabulator 7y agoI have to say that that is exactly my preferred topological arrangement of those components.
- _jal 7y agoThe only way something could be wrong with you about that is if it in some way caused you distress. Not sharing a particular kink is perfectly normal - most people don't have most of them.
- invisiblerobot 7y agoif you're having sex without kissing something IS wrong with you. ;)
- 7y ago
- retrac 7y agoIt's certainly not universally viewed as acceptable intimacy by all cultures. Even more certainly, it's not viewed as acceptable intimacy in public. In some cultures, you're about as likely to see a couple kiss in public as you are to see them have sex in public. > Similarly, the authors state that “no ethnographer working with Sub-Saharan African, New Guinea, or Amazonian foragers or horticulturalists reported having witnessed any occasion in which their study populations engaged in a romantic–sexual kiss” That doesn't mean they don't kiss, of course. Consider that an ethnographer studying people in Tehran would probably conclude their society simply doesn't have homosexual behaviour. If nothing else, I would imagine that, like with other forms of intimacy often viewed as deviant (for example, anal or oral sex), clever people frequently rediscover it, and some like it, and then practice it, even if in secret.
- roywiggins 7y agoYou say that, but I have read at least one in-depth journalistic piece on the gay underground in Tehran. Ethnography isn't that different from journalism. Ethnographers interview people!
- Johnny555 7y agoThey didn't just use observation: "The Tsonga people of Southern Africa are also openly disgusted by the practice: “Kissing was formerly entirely unknown… When they saw the custom adopted by the Europeans, they said laughingly: “Look at these people! They suck each other! They eat each other’s saliva and dirt!” Even a husband never kissed his wife"
- retrac 7y agoYes, and people say the same thing about homosexuality in societies that strongly disapprove of it. They find it comical, disgusting or similar. Doesn't mean the practice doesn't occur.
- bawolff 7y agoThe original article was about kissing not being a general thing in lots of cultures. If a minority of people in those cultures still engage in kissing that hardly disproves the point of the article.
- lazyasciiart 7y agoI wonder what an ethnographer in New York in the 1920's would have described about the attitudes to kissing.
- twelvechairs 7y agoThe Kinsey reports of the late 1940s/50s were a major breakthrough in western understanding of sexuality that had a lot of influence on changing attitudes in the 60s. Before studying human mating he'd studied the mating of gall wasps.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- scw 7y agoReminds me of “boko-maru” of the made-up religion [1] in Vonnegut's Cat's Cradle. 1. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bokononism https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bokononism
- 1000units 7y agoI have a fairly strong suspicion this is just a Yale thing.
- neonate 7y agohttps://web.archive.org/web/20200214235741/https://hraf.yale.edu/romantic-or-disgusting-passionate-kissing-is-not-a-human-universal/ https://web.archive.org/web/20200214235741/https://hraf.yale... https://archive.md/FG6Ss https://archive.md/FG6Ss
- jelliclesfarm 7y agoKissing is a form of bonding and recognizing kin. Apes and birds feed their young by passing on chewed up food mouth to mouth. Sexual kissing could have been a way that was passed down from gestures that were used to recognize those who aren’t kin. The term for it is relic gesture. https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/health-family/science-of-kissing-why-a-kiss-is-not-just-a-kiss-1.3380704 https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/health-family/scie... [..] What are the origins of kissing? In early human societies, it is believed mothers weaned their babies by chewing up their food and then passing it to their babies by lip-to-lip contact. Evolutionary biologists suggest that erotic kissing is a so-called relic gesture, passed down through cultures from these early practices of the mother’s deep kissing and the infant’s searching tongue movements. “If young lovers exploring each other’s mouths with their tongues feel the ancient comfort of parental mouth feeding, this may help them to increase their mutual trust and thereby their pair-bonding,” writes Desmond Morris in his classic book on human behaviour, Manwatching.[..] Desmond Morris’ Manwatching is an excellent read.
- 1000units 7y agoBonding? Recognizing kin? Hie to the city and schlep. Dispose of your old relics, modern man.
- badrabbit 7y agoOr...someone tried it and enjoyed it and then spread the practice? I highly doubt kissing in humans has anythig to do with exchanging chewed food or something much deeper than an enjoyable experience like hugging or cuddling.
- jelliclesfarm 7y agoI think you misunderstood the definition of ‘human universal’. Steven pinker’s Blank Slate has a list of human universals that are hard wired human habits irrespective of culture/age/gender/geography etc
- g82918 7y ago
- romualdr 7y agoSans déconner
- foogazi 7y agoWonder if there is a replacement for the intimacy or is there just an unbridged void
- newnewpdro 7y agoCuddling? Lots of mammals do it, and in my experience it's a very comforting and bond-reinforcing activity. It doesn't feel awkward and forced at all to me, unless with the wrong people, which strikes me as a desirable feature.
- thuuuomas 7y agoAre we seeing this oldpost bcuz someone got offended at the "Mayor Pete isn't really gay" memes?
- coleifer 7y agoBiting on the other hand...
- glouwbug 7y agoComments are all over. HN loses its ability to converse with the slightest mention of sex
- g82918 7y agoIt's a Friday, quality tends to degrade during the weekend. Usually professionals reading the site tend to view and comment more during the work week while things are compiling/deploying. The weekend tends to be more hobbyist/lonely people like me.
- glouwbug 7y agoWell, cheers, and happy Valentine's regardless
- mullingitover 7y agoBonobos do it. I'd wager humans' common ancestors practiced it, and we unlearned it over time on some groups. It's interesting that our two closest primate relatives are Bonobos and Chimpanzees. Bonobos are highly sexual and their sex habits match the full range of human sexual behaviors. Chimpanzees practice tribal warfare can be horrific murderers. Humans exceed both our relative species in both of these areas.
- qplex 7y ago>Bonobos are highly sexual and their sex habits match the full range of human sexual behaviors. I think not. But matching a basic subset perhaps. E.g. I don't think you'll find many bonobos jerking off to internet porn.
- RandomInteger4 7y agoYou're confusing the object for the verb. The sex habit is "jerking off" not "to internet porn", and all it takes is a simple youtube search for "bonobos jerking off" to see that you're wrong.
- qplex 7y agoThe point was that the sexual behaviour of bonobos does not match "full human range".
- pimmen 7y agoThat's like saying humans have evolved radically different behavior compared to 200 years ago because back then they couldn't travel to another celestial body. I would argue jerking off to Internet porn and jerking off to a fantasy are both exhibiting the same behavior, just like a polar explorer from the 19th century and a lunar explorer from the 20th century are exhibiting the same behavior.
- qplex 7y ago
- tal8d 7y agoAfter learning that there are people walking around with no inner monologue, I am no longer surprised by these debunked universalities. People share a lot less in common than what popular culture would have use think, again no surprise when considering the effects of popular culture.