4 ms·

> Its a known fact that most techies suck at interpersonal skills and communicating with their own peers, let alone with other stakeholders in a project. This

> Its a known fact that most techies suck at interpersonal skills and communicating with their own peers, let alone with other stakeholders in a project. This is utter crap. And if you honestly believe it then you certainly shouldn't be acting in any capacity related to team performance. Engineers are allowed to make this excuse. There is nothing about the software engineering that stops people from being good communicators. > Following the Division of Labor principle, there clearly is a space for coordinator in a software development project which cannot simply be wished away. Coordination and communication is not a specialization. It is something critical to all roles in a team. That's what makes it a team. If you try and centralize coordination into a single person then then you're just adding overhead and extra steps to something that needs to be made as natural and seamless as possible

bengale 7y ago
This is just a continuation of the infantilisation of development teams. I don't know whether it's because the industry is young so there are a lot of younger people working in it, or that they're the loudest as they're using social media and blogs more, but it seems pretty common at the different places I've contracted at. All these silly games they play in the scrum 'ceremonies', the need for pizza and beer and games in professional settings. I don't see it in any other business setting. Its unsurprising businesses feel like they need a mediator between the childish way a lot of development teams want to behave and people working as actual professionals within businesses. It would make sense that in smaller pure tech companies where the 'culture' is that everyone behaves like that it may be less necessary, but it certainly is in a more classical business setting.
- ck425 7y ago
  I don't agree wit that assessment. There's a difference between fun and unprofessional. You can treat your teams like adults while still encouraging them to have fun.
- C1sc0cat 7y ago
  Of course we should go out to a proper restaurant and remember we don't order the cheapest bottle on the menu., and none of the cheap whisky JW black at the very least
- cosmodisk 7y ago
  Not sure how the industry ended up with it, but it's crazy. I've witnessed discussions where people point blank refuse even to interview with companies that don't have fussball table. On the other side, companies advertising ridiculous things, like bean bags, beer fridges and some other trivial shit. Seriously, there are all these smart people usually solving extremely difficult problems and yet at the same time it feels like some of them never left nursery.
  - Keverw 7y ago
    Yep. I got a friend who works remotely but had to fly to New York for meetings. Showed me some pictures from his trip, They have a beer available in the fridge, along with bottled water, energy drinks and stuff... I'm not much of a drinker but he told me he thinks it's for after hours lol. but not sure what the actual rule is... or why people would even be there after-hours? I don't get it... Seems like any other jobs, drinking on the time clock you'd get fired... If you worked at a bank or Walmart and was drinking on the job, I got a feeling that wouldn't go over very well... Then I'd be worried about screwing up due to drinking but maybe you don't drink enough to get drunk... Maybe I'm misunderstanding something but doesn't make sense to this whole thing lol. Soda, Water and energy drinks and snacks is cool idea though but the whole alcohol drinking part is just confusing to me. I wonder how much they spend on these perks extra, well some people might use it much more than others... I guess that's probably a good reason to buy in bulk though. but I know some of that stuff isn't even healthy and some people with unknown heart conditions died from drinking too much caffeine too... I feel like unlimited energy drinks some people would go overboard.
austincheney 7y ago
> There is nothing about the software engineering that stops people from being good communicators. There is also nothing stopping developers from writing excellent documentation, but yet that is extremely rare.
- Insanity 7y ago
  Writing good docs is a skill. Good communication is a skill. Not everyone has it - but it's something every can practice and get better at, regardless of your 'job title'.
  - austincheney 7y ago
    For me, as a developer, programming is the art of writing instructions for a computer. Programming is writing. Writing is the difference between a good developer and an overpaid button presser.
    - Insanity 7y ago
      Yes but surely you see there's a difference between writing docs and writing code? Great non-fiction writers are not necessarily able to crank out a best selling thriller the next year.
- watwut 7y ago
  Excellent communication (edit: I meant documentation) is neither valued nor rewarded. By rewarded I mean it does not get you better salary, is not advantage when looking for job and does not bring up your social status. It also takes significant time, even if you are professional technical writer. They do take multiple iterations at writing it too. If you are good at both writing documentation and developing, you are better off if nobody finds out and dont try to push you toward doing it too much.
cosmodisk 7y ago
That's not utter crap. To have people who are both technical and can communicate well not just with people at their level but also upwards or downwards,while adjusting the way they explain things accordingly, is rare.
Angostura 7y ago
> If you try and centralize coordination into a single person then then you're just adding overhead and extra steps to something that needs to be made as natural and seamless as possible How many hours of their day do you suggest developers spend with the stultifying task of coordinating and communicating with management?
- falcolas 7y ago
  You’ve got my upvote. Good communication and coordination takes up a lot of time. And the more people who need to remain in communication and coordinated, the more time it takes. Or, it’s why you have a northbridge on your motherboard, and don’t expect the CPU to handle everything by itself.
- einpoklum 7y ago
  You're assuming that, outside the dev team, there's a hierarchical organization. That's not always the case and perhaps the same principle can be applied to make this less the case. But ignoring that: Most coordination and communication is within the dev team, or horizontally. As for the rest - as much as a single group manager would; or less; or more. But it will be divvied up between the group's members. And they will have to coordinate this kind of communication and rotations of duty amongst themselves.
- underwater 7y ago
  If coordinating with management is time consuming and tedious then you have a problem with management as well as development. Layering more people on top (a project manager) to manage that dysfunction is a band-aid solution. It is always better to remove the root cause completely.
watwut 7y ago
If I could upvote you three times, I would. To add, you know who really sucks at communication with "technical peers"? It is non technical management. The biggest communication issues are all along this gap.
drewcoo 7y ago
It's part of how programmers are turned into commodities.

bengale 7y ago

This is just a continuation of the infantilisation of development teams. I don't know whether it's because the industry is young so there are a lot of younger people working in it, or that they're the loudest as they're using social media and blogs more, but it seems pretty common at the different places I've contracted at. All these silly games they play in the scrum 'ceremonies', the need for pizza and beer and games in professional settings. I don't see it in any other business setting. Its unsurprising businesses feel like they need a mediator between the childish way a lot of development teams want to behave and people working as actual professionals within businesses. It would make sense that in smaller pure tech companies where the 'culture' is that everyone behaves like that it may be less necessary, but it certainly is in a more classical business setting.

ck425 7y ago
I don't agree wit that assessment. There's a difference between fun and unprofessional. You can treat your teams like adults while still encouraging them to have fun.
C1sc0cat 7y ago
Of course we should go out to a proper restaurant and remember we don't order the cheapest bottle on the menu., and none of the cheap whisky JW black at the very least
cosmodisk 7y ago
Not sure how the industry ended up with it, but it's crazy. I've witnessed discussions where people point blank refuse even to interview with companies that don't have fussball table. On the other side, companies advertising ridiculous things, like bean bags, beer fridges and some other trivial shit. Seriously, there are all these smart people usually solving extremely difficult problems and yet at the same time it feels like some of them never left nursery.
- Keverw 7y ago
  Yep. I got a friend who works remotely but had to fly to New York for meetings. Showed me some pictures from his trip, They have a beer available in the fridge, along with bottled water, energy drinks and stuff... I'm not much of a drinker but he told me he thinks it's for after hours lol. but not sure what the actual rule is... or why people would even be there after-hours? I don't get it... Seems like any other jobs, drinking on the time clock you'd get fired... If you worked at a bank or Walmart and was drinking on the job, I got a feeling that wouldn't go over very well... Then I'd be worried about screwing up due to drinking but maybe you don't drink enough to get drunk... Maybe I'm misunderstanding something but doesn't make sense to this whole thing lol. Soda, Water and energy drinks and snacks is cool idea though but the whole alcohol drinking part is just confusing to me. I wonder how much they spend on these perks extra, well some people might use it much more than others... I guess that's probably a good reason to buy in bulk though. but I know some of that stuff isn't even healthy and some people with unknown heart conditions died from drinking too much caffeine too... I feel like unlimited energy drinks some people would go overboard.

austincheney 7y ago

> There is nothing about the software engineering that stops people from being good communicators. There is also nothing stopping developers from writing excellent documentation, but yet that is extremely rare.

Insanity 7y ago
Writing good docs is a skill. Good communication is a skill. Not everyone has it - but it's something every can practice and get better at, regardless of your 'job title'.
- austincheney 7y ago
  For me, as a developer, programming is the art of writing instructions for a computer. Programming is writing. Writing is the difference between a good developer and an overpaid button presser.
  - Insanity 7y ago
    Yes but surely you see there's a difference between writing docs and writing code? Great non-fiction writers are not necessarily able to crank out a best selling thriller the next year.
watwut 7y ago
Excellent communication (edit: I meant documentation) is neither valued nor rewarded. By rewarded I mean it does not get you better salary, is not advantage when looking for job and does not bring up your social status. It also takes significant time, even if you are professional technical writer. They do take multiple iterations at writing it too. If you are good at both writing documentation and developing, you are better off if nobody finds out and dont try to push you toward doing it too much.

cosmodisk 7y ago

That's not utter crap. To have people who are both technical and can communicate well not just with people at their level but also upwards or downwards,while adjusting the way they explain things accordingly, is rare.

Angostura 7y ago

> If you try and centralize coordination into a single person then then you're just adding overhead and extra steps to something that needs to be made as natural and seamless as possible How many hours of their day do you suggest developers spend with the stultifying task of coordinating and communicating with management?

falcolas 7y ago
You’ve got my upvote. Good communication and coordination takes up a lot of time. And the more people who need to remain in communication and coordinated, the more time it takes. Or, it’s why you have a northbridge on your motherboard, and don’t expect the CPU to handle everything by itself.
einpoklum 7y ago
You're assuming that, outside the dev team, there's a hierarchical organization. That's not always the case and perhaps the same principle can be applied to make this less the case. But ignoring that: Most coordination and communication is within the dev team, or horizontally. As for the rest - as much as a single group manager would; or less; or more. But it will be divvied up between the group's members. And they will have to coordinate this kind of communication and rotations of duty amongst themselves.
underwater 7y ago
If coordinating with management is time consuming and tedious then you have a problem with management as well as development. Layering more people on top (a project manager) to manage that dysfunction is a band-aid solution. It is always better to remove the root cause completely.

watwut 7y ago

If I could upvote you three times, I would. To add, you know who really sucks at communication with "technical peers"? It is non technical management. The biggest communication issues are all along this gap.

drewcoo 7y ago

It's part of how programmers are turned into commodities.