7 ms·

> It's hard to feel too sorry for these companies. It's not exactly a secret that this is how China operates and has operated for a very long time. I see this

by tharne 7y ago

> It's hard to feel too sorry for these companies. It's not exactly a secret that this is how China operates and has operated for a very long time. I see this as a win-win. These U.S. companies tried to take shortcuts by outsourcing to China and they got burned. China engaged in all sorts of unethical and illegal behavior in the process and will (hopefully) get burned.

goodcjw2 7y ago
Isn't this a lose-lose situation instead?
- tlbsofware 7y ago
  I think they mean win-win because they are giving the impression that these companies are not doing the right thing so for them to fail by trying this sets the precedent for others. Then since China loses the US may benefit from this
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
tpudlik 7y ago
I see this as a win-win, too, but in a different way. Early on, the US companies cut their costs: good for them, and likely their customers. In the long term, China developed the expertise needed to contribute to the development of advanced technologies: good for them, and for humanity's aggregate progress. There's a lot of acrimony over how to divide the surplus, but this shouldn't overshadow the technological and economic development happening before our very eyes.
- thefounder 7y ago
  >> China developed the expertise needed to contribute to the development of advanced technologies: good for them, and for humanity's aggregate progress. Depends how China uses the technology. More censorship wouldn't be that good for humanity.
- Spooky23 7y ago
  Its wonderful that we can now reap the harvest of pervasive surveillance for pennies.
- JPKab 7y ago
  I love the fact that the PEOPLE of China have been able to benefit economically from this. However, less than 9% of China's population are members of the CCP. The other 91% of China's people are locked out of any form of government representation. This is a recipe for tyranny, and the elites of the CCP have oppressed the good citizens of China by developing tech for suppression of speech, identification and targeting of dissent, etc. Even worse, they have begun exporting this technology to other autocracies. I say this as somebody who has no illusions about the corrupt nature of the US government. However, the US government doesn't have nearly the power over its citizens that the CCP has. Just wanted to clarify that I'm not pretending I live in a perfect democracy. Just empathizing with the Chinese people, and wishing they had more say over their situation than they do now.
  - skissane 7y ago
    > However, less than 9% of China's population are members of the CCP. The other 91% of China's people are locked out of any form of government representation. I wonder, of the 91% who aren’t party members, what percentage are non-members because they don’t want to join the party, versus what percentage wouldn’t be allowed to join even if they wanted to?
    - onetimemanytime 7y ago
      >>I wonder, of the 91% who aren’t party members, what percentage are non-members because they don’t want to join the party, versus what percentage wouldn’t be allowed to join even if they wanted to? In another country, there's was no "I don’t want to join the party" when invited, just relatives with bad reputations as far as the party was concerned so no invitation. In that case, even if you were applied, you'd be refused. Think for a second, you not wanting to join the party? Granted, China in 2020 is different from Eastern Europe in the 1960-1980's but the idea is probably the same. However, probably 95% join to enjoy the perks.
      - SenHeng 7y ago
        Reminds me that in Singapore, if the Party is interested in you, the common euphemism is that they 'would like to have tea' with you. https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/pap-casting-net-wide-for-candidates https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/pap-casting-net-wide-...
- echelon 7y ago
  > good for them, and for humanity's aggregate progress. I don't think social credit and proof that democracy isn't necessary for profit is good for humanity's progress.
  - nine_k 7y ago
    Well, yes, that's what the whole cyberpunk genre has been warning us about for last 30 years. That future has come, though fortunately it's not evenly distributed, at least yet.
    - samplatt 7y ago
      Not sure about the "fortunately" bit. It's nice that the dystopia hasn't captured everything yet, but uneven distribution of technological power is kinda what reinforces the dystopia.
  - Udik 7y ago
    Maybe with a social credit system the US wouldn't have elected Trump. /s
mattmanser 7y ago
The irony of this comment is that this intellectual property theft is what America did in the 1700-1800s to get ahead. And America eventually eclipsed the British that they were stealing from, so don't expect China to be "punished" too much.
- bigfudge 7y ago
  And the Japanese after in the 19th C
- oh_sigh 7y ago
  Maybe there's a difference from wholesale copying of blueprints, design docs, and millions of lines of software, and someone remembering how things work and going somewhere else.
  - mattmanser 7y ago
    No, read about it if you want. Yours really is another ironic comment. The British at least tried to stop it by making it illegal to take the machines out of the country The Americans sent the machines to China themselves to save a few bucks on labor.
    - oh_sigh 7y ago
      I have "read about it", and nothing I read has seemed to justify China's wholesale tech stealing extravaganza. Modern export restrictions are akin to making it illegal to take machines out of a country. Even if it was somehow exactly the same thing happening, saying "you did this 200 years ago so I'm going to do the same thing now" isn't any kind of acceptable reasoning. Mauritania can't say that they are cool to have slaves because America had slaves 170 years ago. Or rather, they can say that, it just isn't very convincing.
      - mattmanser 7y ago
        Is it really stealing? It's ideas, it's not a human right. America has MADE it illegal, forced it through with their trade deals. Enforced anti-free trade copyright and ip ideals on everyone else to try and protect their advantage. One rule for them, 'free' trade for everyone else apart from knowledge, of course. One rule that they themselves ignored in their ascendancy, using those same 'illegal' means China uses. It's just history repeating itself, delude yourself however you want that Amrrica holds some moral high ground by holding life improving knowledge to ransom. I'm no China fan, but Inthis defending America is pathetic.
jariel 7y ago
" These U.S. companies tried to take shortcuts by outsourcing to China " It what universe is it a 'shortcut' to manufacture in another country where there are tons of people looking for jobs, wherein, by the way, said jobs will fundamentally improve the lives of millions, and in most cases, manufacturing such products in the US would not be viable anyhow. There is no 'win win' - China is blatantly cheating, and that's basically the story.

by tharne 7y ago

goodcjw2 7y ago

Isn't this a lose-lose situation instead?

tlbsofware 7y ago
I think they mean win-win because they are giving the impression that these companies are not doing the right thing so for them to fail by trying this sets the precedent for others. Then since China loses the US may benefit from this
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]

tpudlik 7y ago

I see this as a win-win, too, but in a different way. Early on, the US companies cut their costs: good for them, and likely their customers. In the long term, China developed the expertise needed to contribute to the development of advanced technologies: good for them, and for humanity's aggregate progress. There's a lot of acrimony over how to divide the surplus, but this shouldn't overshadow the technological and economic development happening before our very eyes.

thefounder 7y ago
>> China developed the expertise needed to contribute to the development of advanced technologies: good for them, and for humanity's aggregate progress. Depends how China uses the technology. More censorship wouldn't be that good for humanity.
Spooky23 7y ago
Its wonderful that we can now reap the harvest of pervasive surveillance for pennies.
JPKab 7y ago
I love the fact that the PEOPLE of China have been able to benefit economically from this. However, less than 9% of China's population are members of the CCP. The other 91% of China's people are locked out of any form of government representation. This is a recipe for tyranny, and the elites of the CCP have oppressed the good citizens of China by developing tech for suppression of speech, identification and targeting of dissent, etc. Even worse, they have begun exporting this technology to other autocracies. I say this as somebody who has no illusions about the corrupt nature of the US government. However, the US government doesn't have nearly the power over its citizens that the CCP has. Just wanted to clarify that I'm not pretending I live in a perfect democracy. Just empathizing with the Chinese people, and wishing they had more say over their situation than they do now.
- skissane 7y ago
  > However, less than 9% of China's population are members of the CCP. The other 91% of China's people are locked out of any form of government representation. I wonder, of the 91% who aren’t party members, what percentage are non-members because they don’t want to join the party, versus what percentage wouldn’t be allowed to join even if they wanted to?
  - onetimemanytime 7y ago
    >>I wonder, of the 91% who aren’t party members, what percentage are non-members because they don’t want to join the party, versus what percentage wouldn’t be allowed to join even if they wanted to? In another country, there's was no "I don’t want to join the party" when invited, just relatives with bad reputations as far as the party was concerned so no invitation. In that case, even if you were applied, you'd be refused. Think for a second, you not wanting to join the party? Granted, China in 2020 is different from Eastern Europe in the 1960-1980's but the idea is probably the same. However, probably 95% join to enjoy the perks.
    - SenHeng 7y ago
      Reminds me that in Singapore, if the Party is interested in you, the common euphemism is that they 'would like to have tea' with you. https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/pap-casting-net-wide-for-candidates https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/pap-casting-net-wide-...
echelon 7y ago
> good for them, and for humanity's aggregate progress. I don't think social credit and proof that democracy isn't necessary for profit is good for humanity's progress.
- nine_k 7y ago
  Well, yes, that's what the whole cyberpunk genre has been warning us about for last 30 years. That future has come, though fortunately it's not evenly distributed, at least yet.
  - samplatt 7y ago
    Not sure about the "fortunately" bit. It's nice that the dystopia hasn't captured everything yet, but uneven distribution of technological power is kinda what reinforces the dystopia.
- Udik 7y ago
  Maybe with a social credit system the US wouldn't have elected Trump. /s

mattmanser 7y ago

The irony of this comment is that this intellectual property theft is what America did in the 1700-1800s to get ahead. And America eventually eclipsed the British that they were stealing from, so don't expect China to be "punished" too much.

bigfudge 7y ago
And the Japanese after in the 19th C
oh_sigh 7y ago
Maybe there's a difference from wholesale copying of blueprints, design docs, and millions of lines of software, and someone remembering how things work and going somewhere else.
- mattmanser 7y ago
  No, read about it if you want. Yours really is another ironic comment. The British at least tried to stop it by making it illegal to take the machines out of the country The Americans sent the machines to China themselves to save a few bucks on labor.
  - oh_sigh 7y ago
    I have "read about it", and nothing I read has seemed to justify China's wholesale tech stealing extravaganza. Modern export restrictions are akin to making it illegal to take machines out of a country. Even if it was somehow exactly the same thing happening, saying "you did this 200 years ago so I'm going to do the same thing now" isn't any kind of acceptable reasoning. Mauritania can't say that they are cool to have slaves because America had slaves 170 years ago. Or rather, they can say that, it just isn't very convincing.
    - mattmanser 7y ago
      Is it really stealing? It's ideas, it's not a human right. America has MADE it illegal, forced it through with their trade deals. Enforced anti-free trade copyright and ip ideals on everyone else to try and protect their advantage. One rule for them, 'free' trade for everyone else apart from knowledge, of course. One rule that they themselves ignored in their ascendancy, using those same 'illegal' means China uses. It's just history repeating itself, delude yourself however you want that Amrrica holds some moral high ground by holding life improving knowledge to ransom. I'm no China fan, but Inthis defending America is pathetic.

jariel 7y ago

" These U.S. companies tried to take shortcuts by outsourcing to China " It what universe is it a 'shortcut' to manufacture in another country where there are tons of people looking for jobs, wherein, by the way, said jobs will fundamentally improve the lives of millions, and in most cases, manufacturing such products in the US would not be viable anyhow. There is no 'win win' - China is blatantly cheating, and that's basically the story.