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Except that this is not true. The average salary of a software engineer in Japan, Germany and other highly developed nations is only slightly better than let's

Except that this is not true. The average salary of a software engineer in Japan, Germany and other highly developed nations is only slightly better than let's say an accountant's. If we take the amortized hourly wage by considering unpaid overtime then it becomes even worse which is on par with an average high school teacher or alike. In some cases considering the unpaid overtime plus the unpaid self-studies it can get amortized to the level of a janitor. And this is a systematic problem across the industry. On the other hand the health insurance doesn't make any difference in these countries since it's the same for all citizens so I am not sure how is that relevant.

Grimm1 7y ago
Edit: I'm going to put this here because it clearly rubbed some people the wrong way, HN and YC were historically US focused they have since expanded but this site still has a large US population that view and post on it and with that come a bias for this group, including myself, to think in terms of the US market. My below statement, which to me is entirely benign, is basically saying that's what we do. Is it right? I don't know but frankly I don't know anything about non US markets in terms of software engineering jobs and I wouldn't attempt to make a statement in terms of those markets because I don't know them. I do know my own market though and thus you'll get posts from me in terms of that market and I'm not particularly sorry about that. So first off this has traditionally been a US centric site, so you'll have to excuse that most things take a US centric view and we do make a lot of money in the US software industry. Second I have never once worked a job like that and every time I see people talk about this like its the industry norm I kind of become incredulous to the fact. The US market is so good you can turn down jobs like that. I can't help but thinking the overtime you take on is more about you and not pushing back but again maybe this is different outside of the US. Here in the US at least, what are they going to do fire you? Cool, if they do your salary probably just increased by 10-20k USD as you find a new job in < 4 weeks. I get that what you're saying is your reality but it certainly hasn't been mine and if you push back on things more you'll maybe find it doesn't have to be yours either. It's our market and we have high leverage because how desperate jobs are for Devs of all flavors.
- fogetti 7y ago
  This is right from the website: "Join the Global IT Burnout Index" And then there is a form to select my country. So even if HN is a US centric site, which I dispute actually, still the website in this post has nothing to do with the US. And I get that it's different in the US, but I doubt that people don't care if they get fired. I very much doubt that.
  - Grimm1 7y ago
    First off I said "traditionally US centric" which it was. I maybe should have said "historically US centric" which would be more in line with what I was trying to get across. I don't think it is anymore. And second I certainly didn't say they don't care, what I am implying though is they shouldn't care as much, the consequences right now are minimal and potentially largely beneficial.
- ohN8eeohtai2 7y ago
  > you'll have to excuse that most things take a US centric view No, you are not excused. This is not an US-only website. Please respect other people.
  - Grimm1 7y ago
    Excuse in the sense of "forgive" that people have a US bias. I agree with you and you read something from that I didn't intend sorry about that.
luckylion 7y ago
> The average salary of a software engineer in Japan, Germany and other highly developed nations is only slightly better than let's say an accountant's. I don't know. A quick search shows me accountants to start with 25-35k, while software developers start at 42k and peak significantly higher. Sure, depends on your definition of slightly, I guess. If you're in Berlin, Frankfurt, Munich or Hamburg and you're not getting 50k, call a head hunter. And a lot of unpaid overtime? That's rare even for startups because labor law is pretty strict over here, so lots of overtime is a liability for the company, and, since it's pretty easy to find a new job if you're anywhere near a metropolitan area, companies do take care to not drive their employees away.

Grimm1 7y ago

Edit: I'm going to put this here because it clearly rubbed some people the wrong way, HN and YC were historically US focused they have since expanded but this site still has a large US population that view and post on it and with that come a bias for this group, including myself, to think in terms of the US market. My below statement, which to me is entirely benign, is basically saying that's what we do. Is it right? I don't know but frankly I don't know anything about non US markets in terms of software engineering jobs and I wouldn't attempt to make a statement in terms of those markets because I don't know them. I do know my own market though and thus you'll get posts from me in terms of that market and I'm not particularly sorry about that. So first off this has traditionally been a US centric site, so you'll have to excuse that most things take a US centric view and we do make a lot of money in the US software industry. Second I have never once worked a job like that and every time I see people talk about this like its the industry norm I kind of become incredulous to the fact. The US market is so good you can turn down jobs like that. I can't help but thinking the overtime you take on is more about you and not pushing back but again maybe this is different outside of the US. Here in the US at least, what are they going to do fire you? Cool, if they do your salary probably just increased by 10-20k USD as you find a new job in < 4 weeks. I get that what you're saying is your reality but it certainly hasn't been mine and if you push back on things more you'll maybe find it doesn't have to be yours either. It's our market and we have high leverage because how desperate jobs are for Devs of all flavors.

fogetti 7y ago
This is right from the website: "Join the Global IT Burnout Index" And then there is a form to select my country. So even if HN is a US centric site, which I dispute actually, still the website in this post has nothing to do with the US. And I get that it's different in the US, but I doubt that people don't care if they get fired. I very much doubt that.
- Grimm1 7y ago
  First off I said "traditionally US centric" which it was. I maybe should have said "historically US centric" which would be more in line with what I was trying to get across. I don't think it is anymore. And second I certainly didn't say they don't care, what I am implying though is they shouldn't care as much, the consequences right now are minimal and potentially largely beneficial.
ohN8eeohtai2 7y ago
> you'll have to excuse that most things take a US centric view No, you are not excused. This is not an US-only website. Please respect other people.
- Grimm1 7y ago
  Excuse in the sense of "forgive" that people have a US bias. I agree with you and you read something from that I didn't intend sorry about that.

luckylion 7y ago

> The average salary of a software engineer in Japan, Germany and other highly developed nations is only slightly better than let's say an accountant's. I don't know. A quick search shows me accountants to start with 25-35k, while software developers start at 42k and peak significantly higher. Sure, depends on your definition of slightly, I guess. If you're in Berlin, Frankfurt, Munich or Hamburg and you're not getting 50k, call a head hunter. And a lot of unpaid overtime? That's rare even for startups because labor law is pretty strict over here, so lots of overtime is a liability for the company, and, since it's pretty easy to find a new job if you're anywhere near a metropolitan area, companies do take care to not drive their employees away.