5 ms·

I get the sentiment, but some perspective is in order. We're in the goddamn catbird seat. We make a shitload of money, we actually do have good health insuran

I get the sentiment, but some perspective is in order. We're in the goddamn catbird seat. We make a shitload of money, we actually do have good health insurance, and we punch keyboards in a heated office at a desk. We're not mining coal or working in the fertilizer plant from The Jungle. In this economy, if your work environment sucks, the door is open and there are greener pastures. The biggest problem is really that so much of what we do is boring, and, in the greater scheme of things, pointless.

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
leto_ii 7y ago
> We make a shitload of money Not exactly true outside certain areas, mostly in the US. In The Netherlands for example > 80k euros is considered pretty good pay. > so much of what we do is boring, and, in the greater scheme of things, pointless This I would say is actually quite a big problem, one that can lead to burnout in the longer run.
- luckylion 7y ago
  > In The Netherlands for example > 80k euros is considered pretty good pay. More than twice the average income? I don't know whether that qualifies as "shitload", but it's not that far away, no?
  - leto_ii 7y ago
    Well, in the US the equivalent would be around 200k USD. You should also take into account the marginal tax rate of 52%, which yields a net income of a bit below 4k/month. I'm not really complaining, mind you. It's nice to live in a country where basically nobody sleeps on the street, medical assistance is available (if you really need it) and basically free, the infrastructure is great etc.
- nly 7y ago
  €80K in the Netherlands puts you in the top 1.5% of household income[0] That said, it's possible to be in the top few % in a major metropolis anywhere in the world and still feel 'average' simply because the cost of living is so great and you're spending >50% of your income on housing. [0] https://www.cbs.nl/en-gb/visualisaties/income-distribution https://www.cbs.nl/en-gb/visualisaties/income-distribution
  - leto_ii 7y ago
    I'm not really saying that 80k is a little - it's not. It's more than fair - just not a shitload. Note however that the chart shows disposable income, which I'm pretty sure is the one after tax. 80k gross is more like 48k after tax.
commandlinefan 7y ago
> the door is open and - you can easily find a job that devalues you in the exact same dehumanizing way your current job does.
fogetti 7y ago
Except that this is not true. The average salary of a software engineer in Japan, Germany and other highly developed nations is only slightly better than let's say an accountant's. If we take the amortized hourly wage by considering unpaid overtime then it becomes even worse which is on par with an average high school teacher or alike. In some cases considering the unpaid overtime plus the unpaid self-studies it can get amortized to the level of a janitor. And this is a systematic problem across the industry. On the other hand the health insurance doesn't make any difference in these countries since it's the same for all citizens so I am not sure how is that relevant.
- Grimm1 7y ago
  Edit: I'm going to put this here because it clearly rubbed some people the wrong way, HN and YC were historically US focused they have since expanded but this site still has a large US population that view and post on it and with that come a bias for this group, including myself, to think in terms of the US market. My below statement, which to me is entirely benign, is basically saying that's what we do. Is it right? I don't know but frankly I don't know anything about non US markets in terms of software engineering jobs and I wouldn't attempt to make a statement in terms of those markets because I don't know them. I do know my own market though and thus you'll get posts from me in terms of that market and I'm not particularly sorry about that. So first off this has traditionally been a US centric site, so you'll have to excuse that most things take a US centric view and we do make a lot of money in the US software industry. Second I have never once worked a job like that and every time I see people talk about this like its the industry norm I kind of become incredulous to the fact. The US market is so good you can turn down jobs like that. I can't help but thinking the overtime you take on is more about you and not pushing back but again maybe this is different outside of the US. Here in the US at least, what are they going to do fire you? Cool, if they do your salary probably just increased by 10-20k USD as you find a new job in < 4 weeks. I get that what you're saying is your reality but it certainly hasn't been mine and if you push back on things more you'll maybe find it doesn't have to be yours either. It's our market and we have high leverage because how desperate jobs are for Devs of all flavors.
  - 7y ago
katetoss 7y ago
Throwaway, here. If you can't afford to buy a house on a single-income where you live you aren't making a shitload of money. Tech is a small club. There is a blacklist. There are backchannel lines of communication. Piss off the wrong people and it will follow you for years.
- thrower123 7y ago
  The Bay is not the world. Most of it is not anywhere near that kind of pathological situation.
twoquestions 7y ago
Which is why it's important to strike while our iron is still hot. Grab collective bargaining power before we absolutely need it, like so many other industries do these days.
caconym_ 7y ago
> We make a shitload of money, we actually do have good health insurance, and we punch keyboards in a heated office at a desk. What's the point of any of that if you're miserable the whole time? Burning through the prime years of your life, no less. There are valid answers to that question, but I think a lot of people haven't even asked it. In the words of a particularly edgy Radiohead song: "A pig, in a cage, on antibiotics."
ohN8eeohtai2 7y ago
> I get the sentiment, but some perspective is in order. Stop minimizing mental health issues. It's profoundly harmful! Thousands of people in the world jumped off some bridge after being told "you have a good life, take it easy" one time too much. > We're in the goddamn catbird seat. A lot of developers have very undeserved jobs, yes. > We make a shitload of money Not everybody has the sheer privilege of being born in the right country. In most lands developers are quite underpaid. > we punch keyboards in a heated office at a desk. We're not mining coal If you are talking about modern coal mining - it's done by pressing buttons while sitting in a heated steel cabin. If you are talking about mining with a shovel - that's some dishonest cherry-picking. On top of that, burnout and suicide rate strongly correlates with feelings of doing a pointless job. When cooking or building a house or mining coal people can be get a surprisingly amount of satisfaction from their output.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

leto_ii 7y ago

> We make a shitload of money Not exactly true outside certain areas, mostly in the US. In The Netherlands for example > 80k euros is considered pretty good pay. > so much of what we do is boring, and, in the greater scheme of things, pointless This I would say is actually quite a big problem, one that can lead to burnout in the longer run.

luckylion 7y ago
> In The Netherlands for example > 80k euros is considered pretty good pay. More than twice the average income? I don't know whether that qualifies as "shitload", but it's not that far away, no?
- leto_ii 7y ago
  Well, in the US the equivalent would be around 200k USD. You should also take into account the marginal tax rate of 52%, which yields a net income of a bit below 4k/month. I'm not really complaining, mind you. It's nice to live in a country where basically nobody sleeps on the street, medical assistance is available (if you really need it) and basically free, the infrastructure is great etc.
nly 7y ago
€80K in the Netherlands puts you in the top 1.5% of household income[0] That said, it's possible to be in the top few % in a major metropolis anywhere in the world and still feel 'average' simply because the cost of living is so great and you're spending >50% of your income on housing. [0] https://www.cbs.nl/en-gb/visualisaties/income-distribution https://www.cbs.nl/en-gb/visualisaties/income-distribution
- leto_ii 7y ago
  I'm not really saying that 80k is a little - it's not. It's more than fair - just not a shitload. Note however that the chart shows disposable income, which I'm pretty sure is the one after tax. 80k gross is more like 48k after tax.

commandlinefan 7y ago

> the door is open and - you can easily find a job that devalues you in the exact same dehumanizing way your current job does.

fogetti 7y ago

Except that this is not true. The average salary of a software engineer in Japan, Germany and other highly developed nations is only slightly better than let's say an accountant's. If we take the amortized hourly wage by considering unpaid overtime then it becomes even worse which is on par with an average high school teacher or alike. In some cases considering the unpaid overtime plus the unpaid self-studies it can get amortized to the level of a janitor. And this is a systematic problem across the industry. On the other hand the health insurance doesn't make any difference in these countries since it's the same for all citizens so I am not sure how is that relevant.

Grimm1 7y ago
Edit: I'm going to put this here because it clearly rubbed some people the wrong way, HN and YC were historically US focused they have since expanded but this site still has a large US population that view and post on it and with that come a bias for this group, including myself, to think in terms of the US market. My below statement, which to me is entirely benign, is basically saying that's what we do. Is it right? I don't know but frankly I don't know anything about non US markets in terms of software engineering jobs and I wouldn't attempt to make a statement in terms of those markets because I don't know them. I do know my own market though and thus you'll get posts from me in terms of that market and I'm not particularly sorry about that. So first off this has traditionally been a US centric site, so you'll have to excuse that most things take a US centric view and we do make a lot of money in the US software industry. Second I have never once worked a job like that and every time I see people talk about this like its the industry norm I kind of become incredulous to the fact. The US market is so good you can turn down jobs like that. I can't help but thinking the overtime you take on is more about you and not pushing back but again maybe this is different outside of the US. Here in the US at least, what are they going to do fire you? Cool, if they do your salary probably just increased by 10-20k USD as you find a new job in < 4 weeks. I get that what you're saying is your reality but it certainly hasn't been mine and if you push back on things more you'll maybe find it doesn't have to be yours either. It's our market and we have high leverage because how desperate jobs are for Devs of all flavors.
- 7y ago

katetoss 7y ago

Throwaway, here. If you can't afford to buy a house on a single-income where you live you aren't making a shitload of money. Tech is a small club. There is a blacklist. There are backchannel lines of communication. Piss off the wrong people and it will follow you for years.

thrower123 7y ago
The Bay is not the world. Most of it is not anywhere near that kind of pathological situation.

twoquestions 7y ago

Which is why it's important to strike while our iron is still hot. Grab collective bargaining power before we absolutely need it, like so many other industries do these days.

caconym_ 7y ago

> We make a shitload of money, we actually do have good health insurance, and we punch keyboards in a heated office at a desk. What's the point of any of that if you're miserable the whole time? Burning through the prime years of your life, no less. There are valid answers to that question, but I think a lot of people haven't even asked it. In the words of a particularly edgy Radiohead song: "A pig, in a cage, on antibiotics."

ohN8eeohtai2 7y ago

> I get the sentiment, but some perspective is in order. Stop minimizing mental health issues. It's profoundly harmful! Thousands of people in the world jumped off some bridge after being told "you have a good life, take it easy" one time too much. > We're in the goddamn catbird seat. A lot of developers have very undeserved jobs, yes. > We make a shitload of money Not everybody has the sheer privilege of being born in the right country. In most lands developers are quite underpaid. > we punch keyboards in a heated office at a desk. We're not mining coal If you are talking about modern coal mining - it's done by pressing buttons while sitting in a heated steel cabin. If you are talking about mining with a shovel - that's some dishonest cherry-picking. On top of that, burnout and suicide rate strongly correlates with feelings of doing a pointless job. When cooking or building a house or mining coal people can be get a surprisingly amount of satisfaction from their output.