5 ms·

Perhaps tech workers should unionize and demand better healthcare, 40 hour work weeks, etc.

by jdkee 7y ago

blahyawnblah 7y ago
My healthcare is 100% paid for and my work week is 40 hours 99% of the time.
- muchosandwich 7y ago
  My work week is also 40 hours 99% of the time, including the community volunteering my work encourages me to do. I've never missed a milestone because they aren't crazy short and I'm allowed to push back during planning if they are. I think more companies should be like mine. Somehow I still got a 1.4/6 on this survey and my risk "HIGH"
dmos62 7y ago
What, and, like, have actual political power? Red scare!
derision 7y ago
I've never had an issue with any of those things. Maybe people should move away from the valley into the rest of the country where the jobs are more humane
- skrebbel 7y ago
  Better yet, there are entire continents with more humane jobs than most in "the country".
- sp332 7y ago
  You could still use your leverage to help other people get those things. Solidarity and all that.
  - derision 7y ago
    My point is people can get those things by moving away from the "cool" startups and work for the vast majority of other companies that already treat tech workers incredibly well. Compared to my peers outside of tech, I've always had better benefits and better working conditions than them. People need to realize that many of the "issues" they perceive with the industry are limited to certain coastal areas. It's the same with the "women in tech" issue. In every position I've held (I live in Cleveland, OH for reference) there's always been a balanced representation of developers from both genders.
- CaptArmchair 7y ago
  You get downvoted, but you actually have a point. The problem with GP's statement isn't "unionization". It's "tech workers". What does that even mean? It's such a general term that can be applied to vast swathes of the workforce. Is someone who maintains complex VB scripted excel sheets a tech worker, for instance? Or is that label only reserved for those who work at a FAANG company? Many who have a so-called "technical" or "digital" role do so in industries whose main primary focus isn't producing digital software or services. Banks, Automotive, Health, Education, Food, Retail, Mining, Construction, Transport, Tourism,... And many of those industries do have long traditions of unionization and defending laborer rights. Many of those workers are already organized and do have many provisions for a sane workplace culture provided by their employers. Because the latter already went through the pain of worker conflicts. The trouble with the "Valley" is that it originates in that wild idea of bootstrapping your own company from your garage or kitchen table, taking the same mythical roads pioneers of computing took some 40 years ago. While many found unprecedented freedom in being able to bootstrap or work for a fledgling company, doing so was - and still is - a very risky proposition. You will work outrageous amounts of time without knowing if you ever will be able to cash out. You have to be okay with that. Today's FAANG companies originate from that narrative, and VC capital backed start up culture heavily projects that narrative. But Silicon Valley isn't a small community of computing enthousiast anymore. The Wild West doesn't exist anymore. It's a particular industry in it's own right and most sizable companies compare to well-established corporations who are just like any other traditional corporation. Yet, somehow, everyone still perceives these companies as pioneers and give them a free pass as to the ethical choices they make in how they treat the users of their products, and the workers who make those products. Breaking off from this tangent about Valley corporatism, it should be clear that the plight of workers in that setting isn't really comparable to all workers in other industries and fields that may provide better working conditions. Just recently, someone argued to me that working on "boring" technology is what gives you the most job stability (which isn't the same as security!). Like, doing Perl or Cobol for social security institutions, banks, transport, etc. With age, I've come to find that this person is likely right.
thrower123 7y ago
I get the sentiment, but some perspective is in order. We're in the goddamn catbird seat. We make a shitload of money, we actually do have good health insurance, and we punch keyboards in a heated office at a desk. We're not mining coal or working in the fertilizer plant from The Jungle. In this economy, if your work environment sucks, the door is open and there are greener pastures. The biggest problem is really that so much of what we do is boring, and, in the greater scheme of things, pointless.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- leto_ii 7y ago
  > We make a shitload of money Not exactly true outside certain areas, mostly in the US. In The Netherlands for example > 80k euros is considered pretty good pay. > so much of what we do is boring, and, in the greater scheme of things, pointless This I would say is actually quite a big problem, one that can lead to burnout in the longer run.
  - luckylion 7y ago
    > In The Netherlands for example > 80k euros is considered pretty good pay. More than twice the average income? I don't know whether that qualifies as "shitload", but it's not that far away, no?
    - leto_ii 7y ago
      Well, in the US the equivalent would be around 200k USD. You should also take into account the marginal tax rate of 52%, which yields a net income of a bit below 4k/month. I'm not really complaining, mind you. It's nice to live in a country where basically nobody sleeps on the street, medical assistance is available (if you really need it) and basically free, the infrastructure is great etc.
  - nly 7y ago
    €80K in the Netherlands puts you in the top 1.5% of household income[0] That said, it's possible to be in the top few % in a major metropolis anywhere in the world and still feel 'average' simply because the cost of living is so great and you're spending >50% of your income on housing. [0] https://www.cbs.nl/en-gb/visualisaties/income-distribution https://www.cbs.nl/en-gb/visualisaties/income-distribution
etaioinshrdlu 7y ago
Not only is this politically impossible in the US, it would never be able to be equally applied across the industry. Startups would still give a raw deal to their employees. Startup culture in California practically worships extreme hours and periods without pay as "dedication" and part of the "grind". Furthermore the fact that programming can be fun enough for lone wolf hackers to do their open source projects for free means that unionization efforts would probably lead to a greater industry reliance on actual free work, not less.
bla3 7y ago
You can burn out no problem with great healthcare and 40 hour work weeks.
- Apocryphon 7y ago
  Right, but the velocity is probably slower.
leftyted 7y ago
I think that burnout has more to do with existential questions and less to do with labor questions. If you don't have a good answer to "why am I doing this job?" then it doesn't matter if you work 40 hours and have excellent healthcare.
- dnautics 7y ago
  Actually I think it's about missing your expectations of reward.

Perhaps tech workers should unionize and demand better healthcare, 40 hour work weeks, etc.

by jdkee 7y ago

Perhaps tech workers should unionize and demand better healthcare, 40 hour work weeks, etc.

blahyawnblah 7y ago

My healthcare is 100% paid for and my work week is 40 hours 99% of the time.

muchosandwich 7y ago
My work week is also 40 hours 99% of the time, including the community volunteering my work encourages me to do. I've never missed a milestone because they aren't crazy short and I'm allowed to push back during planning if they are. I think more companies should be like mine. Somehow I still got a 1.4/6 on this survey and my risk "HIGH"

dmos62 7y ago

What, and, like, have actual political power? Red scare!

derision 7y ago

I've never had an issue with any of those things. Maybe people should move away from the valley into the rest of the country where the jobs are more humane

skrebbel 7y ago
Better yet, there are entire continents with more humane jobs than most in "the country".
sp332 7y ago
You could still use your leverage to help other people get those things. Solidarity and all that.
- derision 7y ago
  My point is people can get those things by moving away from the "cool" startups and work for the vast majority of other companies that already treat tech workers incredibly well. Compared to my peers outside of tech, I've always had better benefits and better working conditions than them. People need to realize that many of the "issues" they perceive with the industry are limited to certain coastal areas. It's the same with the "women in tech" issue. In every position I've held (I live in Cleveland, OH for reference) there's always been a balanced representation of developers from both genders.
CaptArmchair 7y ago
You get downvoted, but you actually have a point. The problem with GP's statement isn't "unionization". It's "tech workers". What does that even mean? It's such a general term that can be applied to vast swathes of the workforce. Is someone who maintains complex VB scripted excel sheets a tech worker, for instance? Or is that label only reserved for those who work at a FAANG company? Many who have a so-called "technical" or "digital" role do so in industries whose main primary focus isn't producing digital software or services. Banks, Automotive, Health, Education, Food, Retail, Mining, Construction, Transport, Tourism,... And many of those industries do have long traditions of unionization and defending laborer rights. Many of those workers are already organized and do have many provisions for a sane workplace culture provided by their employers. Because the latter already went through the pain of worker conflicts. The trouble with the "Valley" is that it originates in that wild idea of bootstrapping your own company from your garage or kitchen table, taking the same mythical roads pioneers of computing took some 40 years ago. While many found unprecedented freedom in being able to bootstrap or work for a fledgling company, doing so was - and still is - a very risky proposition. You will work outrageous amounts of time without knowing if you ever will be able to cash out. You have to be okay with that. Today's FAANG companies originate from that narrative, and VC capital backed start up culture heavily projects that narrative. But Silicon Valley isn't a small community of computing enthousiast anymore. The Wild West doesn't exist anymore. It's a particular industry in it's own right and most sizable companies compare to well-established corporations who are just like any other traditional corporation. Yet, somehow, everyone still perceives these companies as pioneers and give them a free pass as to the ethical choices they make in how they treat the users of their products, and the workers who make those products. Breaking off from this tangent about Valley corporatism, it should be clear that the plight of workers in that setting isn't really comparable to all workers in other industries and fields that may provide better working conditions. Just recently, someone argued to me that working on "boring" technology is what gives you the most job stability (which isn't the same as security!). Like, doing Perl or Cobol for social security institutions, banks, transport, etc. With age, I've come to find that this person is likely right.

thrower123 7y ago

I get the sentiment, but some perspective is in order. We're in the goddamn catbird seat. We make a shitload of money, we actually do have good health insurance, and we punch keyboards in a heated office at a desk. We're not mining coal or working in the fertilizer plant from The Jungle. In this economy, if your work environment sucks, the door is open and there are greener pastures. The biggest problem is really that so much of what we do is boring, and, in the greater scheme of things, pointless.

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
leto_ii 7y ago
> We make a shitload of money Not exactly true outside certain areas, mostly in the US. In The Netherlands for example > 80k euros is considered pretty good pay. > so much of what we do is boring, and, in the greater scheme of things, pointless This I would say is actually quite a big problem, one that can lead to burnout in the longer run.
- luckylion 7y ago
  > In The Netherlands for example > 80k euros is considered pretty good pay. More than twice the average income? I don't know whether that qualifies as "shitload", but it's not that far away, no?
  - leto_ii 7y ago
    Well, in the US the equivalent would be around 200k USD. You should also take into account the marginal tax rate of 52%, which yields a net income of a bit below 4k/month. I'm not really complaining, mind you. It's nice to live in a country where basically nobody sleeps on the street, medical assistance is available (if you really need it) and basically free, the infrastructure is great etc.
- nly 7y ago
  €80K in the Netherlands puts you in the top 1.5% of household income[0] That said, it's possible to be in the top few % in a major metropolis anywhere in the world and still feel 'average' simply because the cost of living is so great and you're spending >50% of your income on housing. [0] https://www.cbs.nl/en-gb/visualisaties/income-distribution https://www.cbs.nl/en-gb/visualisaties/income-distribution

etaioinshrdlu 7y ago

Not only is this politically impossible in the US, it would never be able to be equally applied across the industry. Startups would still give a raw deal to their employees. Startup culture in California practically worships extreme hours and periods without pay as "dedication" and part of the "grind". Furthermore the fact that programming can be fun enough for lone wolf hackers to do their open source projects for free means that unionization efforts would probably lead to a greater industry reliance on actual free work, not less.

bla3 7y ago

You can burn out no problem with great healthcare and 40 hour work weeks.

Apocryphon 7y ago
Right, but the velocity is probably slower.

leftyted 7y ago

I think that burnout has more to do with existential questions and less to do with labor questions. If you don't have a good answer to "why am I doing this job?" then it doesn't matter if you work 40 hours and have excellent healthcare.

dnautics 7y ago
Actually I think it's about missing your expectations of reward.