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Tangentially related to this article, but moving/uprooting children can have fairly large negative consequences that affect them the rest of their lives. Here'

Tangentially related to this article, but moving/uprooting children can have fairly large negative consequences that affect them the rest of their lives. Here's one article [1] that found: "Elevated risks were observed for all examined outcomes, with excess risk seen among those exposed to multiple versus single relocations in a year. Risks grew incrementally with increasing age of exposure to mobility" Examined outcomes consisted of "attempted suicide, violent criminality, psychiatric illness, substance misuse, and natural and unnatural deaths." There are many more studies if you search for them that show a range of affects including worse academic performance and one I found that included a higher rate of hospitalization in kids who moved (although the cause was unclear). It's a traumatic event. [1] - https://www.ajpmonline.org/article/S0749-3797(16)30118-0/pdf https://www.ajpmonline.org/article/S0749-3797(16)30118-0/pdf [2] - http://theconversation.com/moving-home-can-affect-your-childrens-health-and-education-62738 http://theconversation.com/moving-home-can-affect-your-child...

dmos62 7y ago
Personal experience and reading points to the opposite conclusion. Trivia: amongst successful actors a disproportionate number of them had parents who had jobs that caused the family to move around a lot (traveling salesmen and the like). Out of the people I've met, those who were moving around a lot as kids had a different quality in my eyes. They also often continued moving around in later life. When you grow up in a single environment you find it harder to differentiate what is a feature of this local culture, and what is a feature of the "wider world", because you're stuck with only one data point.
- reaperducer 7y ago
  A lot of the more successful, worldly people I know were "army brats" who moved around a lot. It gave them a different view of the world and a greater sense of independence and the need to do things for one's self.
  - ptero 7y ago
    This might not be a fair comparison. One of the risks of moving during vulnerable age is being seen as an outsider and excluded from groups at every new place. But army brats tend to cluster as parents get deployed to a large base, and having other somewhat friendly kids in a similar state can be a big help with avoiding exclusion.
- champagneben 7y ago
  Johnny Depp came to my mind as well reading that. Perhaps it's not such an opposite conclusion, though? I don't want to suggest most actors have personal problems, but having listened to a lot of the more successful ones it seems like there's often a void that's yearning to be filled by fame and adulation.
- nck4222 7y ago
  Anecdotes about personal experience, people you've met, and unsourced trivia don't disprove studies about populations as a whole. Celebrities may have a much higher rate of suicide (2.9%) vs the general population (.013% in the US): https://www.researchgate.net/publication/13524696_Suicide_in_eminent_persons https://www.researchgate.net/publication/13524696_Suicide_in... That doesn't seem like the opposite conclusion to me. I wouldn't be surprised to find out that moving could possibly give you skills, deficiencies, and desires that make it more likely you become an actor either, but that seems like a little more like speculation at this point.
  - dmos62 7y ago
    Don't discount anecdotes. World views, even if found to be supported by studies, are often rationalizations of inner state.
  - vumgl 7y ago
    Depression is common among highly successful and/or popular figures. I read that depression was common among astronauts after they completed their missions. Virtually nothing that they (can) do later in life compares with the scope of their past missions, and that leads to depression or worse. These days, part of the astronaut training includes planning for their post-mission goals.
    - nate_meurer 7y ago
      Same for combat veterans.
- alrs 7y ago
  Successful actors are lottery winners. Millions of people are affected by problems in childhood. There are 500 people, tops, on the planet who have monetized the resulting personality disorder into some kind of mass-media fame.
  - dmos62 7y ago
    Why do you think there are only 500? I'm not challenging the observation, just curious about the casaulity you see.
davidw 7y ago
Thanks for those! It just so happens we're deciding right now whether to move our daughter into a school with a better TAG program, but it'd mean starting 7th grade in a new school.
- Tyr42 7y ago
  I moved to a better school for grade 7, and it really helped me, but I wasn't having a great time at the old one.
- nck4222 7y ago
  I don't mean to suggest that moving is never the right decision, but yes those results personally give me pause in whether it'd a good idea to move. Also it seems in general more thought is needed around what can be done to help kids with the transition when moving.
- sct202 7y ago
  Are TAG programs a big thing in middle school? At the schools I went to TAG programs in elementary school automatically tracked you into the honors classes in middle school and then high school, but a lot of kids who weren't in TAG funneled into honors any way.
  - davidw 7y ago
    When I went to school, they were an elementary school thing. Apparently they go through middle school now; after that high school has a enough tracks to not need it, I guess. AP classes and such.
- californical 7y ago
  How does your daughter feel about it? It's probably good to involve her in the conversation too
  - davidw 7y ago
    'We' includes her, of course.
at_a_remove 7y ago
I would fall into the category of kids who did not do well with this. I was moved a double-digit number of times when I was in single digits of age. Eventually, my parents thought to take me to a psychologist to solve the puzzling issue of why I wasn't making friends. The notes I requested from the psychologist decades later included a line from me that went something to the effect of that I didn't get to enjoy having friends, I just got to miss them. I absolutely missed some social developmental windows, somewhat like the kittens who, never exposed to horizontal lines during a critical point in the Blakemore and Cooper experiment, were unable to perceive them later on. Nothing I have been able to do in terms of reading, groups, exercises, and the like has been able to grant me the easy camaraderie that comes readily to others. Instead I am typically watchful and quiet, on the periphery of any group. Carnegie, Toastmasters, and all of the glad-handing can provide at best a kind of thin simulation that never takes root for me. I have faked it and been unable to make it, leaving me with a somewhat guilty fear that any charm I may have would be greasily like that of any garden variety psychopath. Perhaps the most "positive" thing to come out of it would be near-schizoid levels of self-reliance and an ability to acquire local accents to better fit in. Some kids get over it, some ... do not.
- nck4222 7y ago
  >something to the effect of that I didn't get to enjoy having friends, I just got to miss them. >I am typically watchful and quiet, on the periphery of any group. >I have faked it and been unable to make it I know other people who moved several times as kids, and these are very common sentiments among them (and many other people as well, who didn't move). I don't have much else to say, other than you're not alone and I hope you find peace with this.
  - heartbeats 7y ago
    Why would you find peace with being stunted and missing out on major parts of life? To be blunt, it doesn't sound like something to be enthusiastic about.
    - kossae 7y ago
jobseeker990 7y ago
How do they rule out the correlation that families that move a lot might not be as stable in general?
- wufufufu 7y ago
  Shhh... let's just continue to self-diagnose traumatic childhoods when there are many potential confounding variables
  - dwaltrip 7y ago
    I quickly skimmed some of your comment history. You are clearly capable of writing much more constructive comments than this. I encourage you to do so :) It isn't a great look to snidely put down people who have experienced difficulty and are simply trying to understand themselves better.
- yhoiseth 7y ago
  In the part about limitations, the linked paper says > Although several important confounders were adjusted for, the observed independent associations may nonetheless have been prone to residual confounding. This is because many salient adverse childhood experiences, including most instances of abuse and neglect, are not routinely registered. The underlying reasons for residential change, such as family dissolution, were also unknown. Furthermore, socio-economic trajectories among the cohort members beyond their 15th birthdays, which could have mediated the observed associations, were not examined. Selection of potential confounders was essentially restricted according to their availability, which is a common limitation of many studies conducted using administrative registers. An unknown degree of reverse causality bias may also have been present. Earlier unregistered problematic behaviors among older children and adolescents may have motivated some families to relocate to start afresh. However, it seems unlikely that these hidden biases could wholly explain the strong links observed between residential mobility in early/mid-adolescence and subsequent adverse outcomes. Finally, the findings may not apply universally beyond Denmark, although it seems likely that they are relevant to other western societies with similar drivers of residential mobility.
- deleted 7y ago
zelly 7y ago
Ah yes another excuse to blame others, particularly your parents, for your problems. What would we do without the field of Psychology (tm) and the wonderful results of plugging and chugging high school stats formulas.
- wonjohnchoi 7y ago
  Your comment suggests that you were fortunate enough not to experience frequent moves and social issues during your childhood. At the same time, you seem to lack empathy towards others' pain. I am sorry for people around you.
  - nitrogen 7y ago
    For people in reasonable but not stellar circumstances, the "don't blame others, own your life" advice is probably appropriate. For others, that advice amounts to insidious gaslighting.
Xal3bUle5Q 7y ago
It happened to me three times, once in middle school. The final time it happened to me was just before high school. I never quite felt like I managed to settle in to a group of friends in high school. It felt like I was "new" the whole time I was there. The trouble was that everyone else knew each other from middle and elementary school. I did start over with friends at my university but those people ended up being nowhere near me after we graduated. From what I can tell a lot of people never really left their friends from high school and kind of remain with these people through life but I don't really have any so I just have felt lacking for so long and wished I had that. But on the other hand I know it's not impossible to find new groups of friends. I would definitely say the moves were very difficult. Leaving the old and the shock of not knowing anyone at a new school had a deep effect on me.
Terr_ 7y ago
Hmmm, perhaps you don't even need uprooting: I spent many formative years in an American-run school overseas, which had high student turnover, perhaps in the realm of 10-30% per year. Now I wonder what implicit lessons I may have taken away from being one of the few "old timers" as everybody else kept cycling through. Returning to the US, I had a hard time wrapping my head around the idea that some kids went to the same local schools their parents had.
- AptExtrapolatio 7y ago
  Are you me?! Seriously though, I was in this exact same situation growing up and I can certainly relate to the other comments around not being great at maintaining long term friendships. Just another data point, but I do think there’s a similar effect in this sort of counter-scenario.
83457 7y ago
Two of my best friends growing up relocated in late elementary and then middle school. Not sure how they did afterwards as I didn't keep in contact much (harder in 90s) but being more introverted myself it certainly affected me negatively.
meesles 7y ago
Anecdotally moving abroad in high school saved my social life. I was a shut-in and never adjusted in the US, but moving abroad gave me a fresh start and let me develop into the person I am today. I'm very appreciative for the opportunity and would never trade it for anything. Guess I'm lucky?
- Baeocystin 7y ago
  For what it's worth, I moved several times during my childhood (my father was a diplomat, so it was to different countries, not just different states) and frankly I loved it. As you say, each location is a new start, a break from earlier expectations, and a chance to reinvent yourself. I strongly feel the benefits outweighed any negatives. I am friends with some folks who have lived in a single area their entire lives, and while they do have a feeling of 'roots' that I will never have, they also have a smaller worldview. Not their fault, in the sense that you can't expect someone who hasn't experienced something to understand it, but I'm glad I lived the life I did.
- jklm 7y ago
  Not to diminish your experience, but I would infinitely have preferred moving abroad vs. bouncing around domestically. Doing so gives you a free pass in some ways, since it’s expected that there’ll be some element of friction for you as you adjust to the culture shift. If you have friends who immigrated at a young age, I highly recommend talking to them about the experience of returning back to their birth countries (if they’ve done so). Especially for those who no longer speak the language, it’s often a reverse culture shock.
vinniejames 7y ago
I wonder how the ability to easily stay in touch with people after moving through social media, and the increased normalcy of online friends, will will impact the affect of geographic separation from friends of kids who move a lot
otakucode 7y ago
It often surprises me when I hear about parents who are considering job-hopping and moving when they have children that are in the critical 11 - 15 age range. I had read ages ago, back in the late 90s I believe, that the chance of suicide skyrockets if an early adolescent is separated from their friend group. In my later reading and reflecting on my own experiences and whatnot I've come to believe that prior to the advent of agriculture, when most of humanity were nomadic hunter-gatherers (mostly gathering), when the single universally shared concept was of shared fatherhood, and when most children were raised in-common by the tribe, that friend group formed in early adolescence most likely functioned very much like your second family. First you get the tribe of adults, the family you're given, then you get to choose one and build it yourself. We spent the vast majority of human development at that stage, so it's a bit presumptive to think we can suppress it without significant consequence.

dmos62 7y ago

Personal experience and reading points to the opposite conclusion. Trivia: amongst successful actors a disproportionate number of them had parents who had jobs that caused the family to move around a lot (traveling salesmen and the like). Out of the people I've met, those who were moving around a lot as kids had a different quality in my eyes. They also often continued moving around in later life. When you grow up in a single environment you find it harder to differentiate what is a feature of this local culture, and what is a feature of the "wider world", because you're stuck with only one data point.

reaperducer 7y ago
A lot of the more successful, worldly people I know were "army brats" who moved around a lot. It gave them a different view of the world and a greater sense of independence and the need to do things for one's self.
- ptero 7y ago
  This might not be a fair comparison. One of the risks of moving during vulnerable age is being seen as an outsider and excluded from groups at every new place. But army brats tend to cluster as parents get deployed to a large base, and having other somewhat friendly kids in a similar state can be a big help with avoiding exclusion.
champagneben 7y ago
Johnny Depp came to my mind as well reading that. Perhaps it's not such an opposite conclusion, though? I don't want to suggest most actors have personal problems, but having listened to a lot of the more successful ones it seems like there's often a void that's yearning to be filled by fame and adulation.
nck4222 7y ago
Anecdotes about personal experience, people you've met, and unsourced trivia don't disprove studies about populations as a whole. Celebrities may have a much higher rate of suicide (2.9%) vs the general population (.013% in the US): https://www.researchgate.net/publication/13524696_Suicide_in_eminent_persons https://www.researchgate.net/publication/13524696_Suicide_in... That doesn't seem like the opposite conclusion to me. I wouldn't be surprised to find out that moving could possibly give you skills, deficiencies, and desires that make it more likely you become an actor either, but that seems like a little more like speculation at this point.
- dmos62 7y ago
  Don't discount anecdotes. World views, even if found to be supported by studies, are often rationalizations of inner state.
- vumgl 7y ago
  Depression is common among highly successful and/or popular figures. I read that depression was common among astronauts after they completed their missions. Virtually nothing that they (can) do later in life compares with the scope of their past missions, and that leads to depression or worse. These days, part of the astronaut training includes planning for their post-mission goals.
  - nate_meurer 7y ago
    Same for combat veterans.
alrs 7y ago
Successful actors are lottery winners. Millions of people are affected by problems in childhood. There are 500 people, tops, on the planet who have monetized the resulting personality disorder into some kind of mass-media fame.
- dmos62 7y ago
  Why do you think there are only 500? I'm not challenging the observation, just curious about the casaulity you see.

davidw 7y ago

Thanks for those! It just so happens we're deciding right now whether to move our daughter into a school with a better TAG program, but it'd mean starting 7th grade in a new school.

Tyr42 7y ago
I moved to a better school for grade 7, and it really helped me, but I wasn't having a great time at the old one.
nck4222 7y ago
I don't mean to suggest that moving is never the right decision, but yes those results personally give me pause in whether it'd a good idea to move. Also it seems in general more thought is needed around what can be done to help kids with the transition when moving.
sct202 7y ago
Are TAG programs a big thing in middle school? At the schools I went to TAG programs in elementary school automatically tracked you into the honors classes in middle school and then high school, but a lot of kids who weren't in TAG funneled into honors any way.
- davidw 7y ago
  When I went to school, they were an elementary school thing. Apparently they go through middle school now; after that high school has a enough tracks to not need it, I guess. AP classes and such.
californical 7y ago
How does your daughter feel about it? It's probably good to involve her in the conversation too
- davidw 7y ago
  'We' includes her, of course.

at_a_remove 7y ago

I would fall into the category of kids who did not do well with this. I was moved a double-digit number of times when I was in single digits of age. Eventually, my parents thought to take me to a psychologist to solve the puzzling issue of why I wasn't making friends. The notes I requested from the psychologist decades later included a line from me that went something to the effect of that I didn't get to enjoy having friends, I just got to miss them. I absolutely missed some social developmental windows, somewhat like the kittens who, never exposed to horizontal lines during a critical point in the Blakemore and Cooper experiment, were unable to perceive them later on. Nothing I have been able to do in terms of reading, groups, exercises, and the like has been able to grant me the easy camaraderie that comes readily to others. Instead I am typically watchful and quiet, on the periphery of any group. Carnegie, Toastmasters, and all of the glad-handing can provide at best a kind of thin simulation that never takes root for me. I have faked it and been unable to make it, leaving me with a somewhat guilty fear that any charm I may have would be greasily like that of any garden variety psychopath. Perhaps the most "positive" thing to come out of it would be near-schizoid levels of self-reliance and an ability to acquire local accents to better fit in. Some kids get over it, some ... do not.

nck4222 7y ago
>something to the effect of that I didn't get to enjoy having friends, I just got to miss them. >I am typically watchful and quiet, on the periphery of any group. >I have faked it and been unable to make it I know other people who moved several times as kids, and these are very common sentiments among them (and many other people as well, who didn't move). I don't have much else to say, other than you're not alone and I hope you find peace with this.
- heartbeats 7y ago
  Why would you find peace with being stunted and missing out on major parts of life? To be blunt, it doesn't sound like something to be enthusiastic about.
  - kossae 7y ago

jobseeker990 7y ago

How do they rule out the correlation that families that move a lot might not be as stable in general?

wufufufu 7y ago
Shhh... let's just continue to self-diagnose traumatic childhoods when there are many potential confounding variables
- dwaltrip 7y ago
  I quickly skimmed some of your comment history. You are clearly capable of writing much more constructive comments than this. I encourage you to do so :) It isn't a great look to snidely put down people who have experienced difficulty and are simply trying to understand themselves better.
yhoiseth 7y ago
In the part about limitations, the linked paper says > Although several important confounders were adjusted for, the observed independent associations may nonetheless have been prone to residual confounding. This is because many salient adverse childhood experiences, including most instances of abuse and neglect, are not routinely registered. The underlying reasons for residential change, such as family dissolution, were also unknown. Furthermore, socio-economic trajectories among the cohort members beyond their 15th birthdays, which could have mediated the observed associations, were not examined. Selection of potential confounders was essentially restricted according to their availability, which is a common limitation of many studies conducted using administrative registers. An unknown degree of reverse causality bias may also have been present. Earlier unregistered problematic behaviors among older children and adolescents may have motivated some families to relocate to start afresh. However, it seems unlikely that these hidden biases could wholly explain the strong links observed between residential mobility in early/mid-adolescence and subsequent adverse outcomes. Finally, the findings may not apply universally beyond Denmark, although it seems likely that they are relevant to other western societies with similar drivers of residential mobility.
deleted 7y ago

zelly 7y ago

Ah yes another excuse to blame others, particularly your parents, for your problems. What would we do without the field of Psychology (tm) and the wonderful results of plugging and chugging high school stats formulas.

wonjohnchoi 7y ago
Your comment suggests that you were fortunate enough not to experience frequent moves and social issues during your childhood. At the same time, you seem to lack empathy towards others' pain. I am sorry for people around you.
- nitrogen 7y ago
  For people in reasonable but not stellar circumstances, the "don't blame others, own your life" advice is probably appropriate. For others, that advice amounts to insidious gaslighting.

Xal3bUle5Q 7y ago

It happened to me three times, once in middle school. The final time it happened to me was just before high school. I never quite felt like I managed to settle in to a group of friends in high school. It felt like I was "new" the whole time I was there. The trouble was that everyone else knew each other from middle and elementary school. I did start over with friends at my university but those people ended up being nowhere near me after we graduated. From what I can tell a lot of people never really left their friends from high school and kind of remain with these people through life but I don't really have any so I just have felt lacking for so long and wished I had that. But on the other hand I know it's not impossible to find new groups of friends. I would definitely say the moves were very difficult. Leaving the old and the shock of not knowing anyone at a new school had a deep effect on me.

Terr_ 7y ago

Hmmm, perhaps you don't even need uprooting: I spent many formative years in an American-run school overseas, which had high student turnover, perhaps in the realm of 10-30% per year. Now I wonder what implicit lessons I may have taken away from being one of the few "old timers" as everybody else kept cycling through. Returning to the US, I had a hard time wrapping my head around the idea that some kids went to the same local schools their parents had.

AptExtrapolatio 7y ago
Are you me?! Seriously though, I was in this exact same situation growing up and I can certainly relate to the other comments around not being great at maintaining long term friendships. Just another data point, but I do think there’s a similar effect in this sort of counter-scenario.

83457 7y ago

Two of my best friends growing up relocated in late elementary and then middle school. Not sure how they did afterwards as I didn't keep in contact much (harder in 90s) but being more introverted myself it certainly affected me negatively.

meesles 7y ago

Anecdotally moving abroad in high school saved my social life. I was a shut-in and never adjusted in the US, but moving abroad gave me a fresh start and let me develop into the person I am today. I'm very appreciative for the opportunity and would never trade it for anything. Guess I'm lucky?

Baeocystin 7y ago
For what it's worth, I moved several times during my childhood (my father was a diplomat, so it was to different countries, not just different states) and frankly I loved it. As you say, each location is a new start, a break from earlier expectations, and a chance to reinvent yourself. I strongly feel the benefits outweighed any negatives. I am friends with some folks who have lived in a single area their entire lives, and while they do have a feeling of 'roots' that I will never have, they also have a smaller worldview. Not their fault, in the sense that you can't expect someone who hasn't experienced something to understand it, but I'm glad I lived the life I did.
jklm 7y ago
Not to diminish your experience, but I would infinitely have preferred moving abroad vs. bouncing around domestically. Doing so gives you a free pass in some ways, since it’s expected that there’ll be some element of friction for you as you adjust to the culture shift. If you have friends who immigrated at a young age, I highly recommend talking to them about the experience of returning back to their birth countries (if they’ve done so). Especially for those who no longer speak the language, it’s often a reverse culture shock.

vinniejames 7y ago

I wonder how the ability to easily stay in touch with people after moving through social media, and the increased normalcy of online friends, will will impact the affect of geographic separation from friends of kids who move a lot

otakucode 7y ago

It often surprises me when I hear about parents who are considering job-hopping and moving when they have children that are in the critical 11 - 15 age range. I had read ages ago, back in the late 90s I believe, that the chance of suicide skyrockets if an early adolescent is separated from their friend group. In my later reading and reflecting on my own experiences and whatnot I've come to believe that prior to the advent of agriculture, when most of humanity were nomadic hunter-gatherers (mostly gathering), when the single universally shared concept was of shared fatherhood, and when most children were raised in-common by the tribe, that friend group formed in early adolescence most likely functioned very much like your second family. First you get the tribe of adults, the family you're given, then you get to choose one and build it yourself. We spent the vast majority of human development at that stage, so it's a bit presumptive to think we can suppress it without significant consequence.