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I think the reason programming is difficult is that really we are dealing with incomplete information while the device that runs your program does not care you

I think the reason programming is difficult is that really we are dealing with incomplete information while the device that runs your program does not care you have incomplete information and wants to screw you the first time you do something not right in the slightest. Programming is not just understanding how the device, language, libraries work (ie. getting more complete information) but also limiting the ways the adversary can screw you and limiting the fallout. Programming is difficult because developers don't appreciate how important the part of managing this incomplete information is. "I wrote this and it works! Yeay!" And then it goes in prod and fails instantly because you did not take this or that into account. Some bright developers have the ability to manage this. But the problem is that they can't work really well with other developers (at a typical corp) who don't appreciate the problem the same way. This puts them in this untenable positions where they can either do something by themselves, very efficiently, or rely on extremely inefficient process if they want to work with other developers.

BlameKaneda 7y ago
> "...we are dealing with incomplete information while the device that runs your program does not care you have incomplete information and wants to screw you the first time you do something not right in the slightest." Suppose you're becoming pretty comfortable with your skills in a foreign language and you've become pretty decent at speaking it. Occasionally you'll make a mistake---you'll pronounce a word incorrectly, misplace a verb, etc---and chances are the person you're speaking with will be able to figure out what you meant to say. Unfortunately, computers don't work that way. If you're writing a function and your syntax is incorrect, the browser won't understand what you're trying to do.
- grawprog 7y ago
  >Unfortunately, computers don't work that way. If you're writing a function and your syntax is incorrect, the browser won't understand what you're trying to do. Or worse, you and the computer have different understandings about what you're trying to do and it goes along quietly incorrectly for a while until that little mistake causes a problem somewhere else entirely because that one misunderstanding caused a cascade of misunderstandings that kept building up until it finally blew out everywhere all over your program and the quest to find where the problem started begins, well before the task of fixing the problem can start.
BurningFrog 7y ago
> But the problem is that they can't work really well with other developers (at a typical corp) who don't appreciate the problem the same way. The key is to not work at a typical corp! :)
_8ljf 7y ago
“I think the reason programming is difficult is that really we are dealing with incomplete information” Dealing with uncertainty and incompleteness is a core part of the job. The problem is that far too many programmers are gloryhounds and cowboys who think all that is beneath them; cramping their style when they’re trying to be the coding heroes. This is compounded by many programmers being lazy incurious bums who have zero interest in doing anything that isn’t writing code. They don’t want to learn the user’s problem domain, so they don’t. Instead they demand users describe exactly how the software should work down to the very last detail; but if users could do that for themselves then they wouldn’t need programmers to write it for them! Starting from ignorance, instead of writing software that encapsulates the users’ expert requirements, they write clever code that solves their own problems: entertaining themselves, and getting paid. Writing code is not hard. Any monkey can do that. The challenge is knowing what code to write; and that’s made needlessly hard by programmers who can’t be arsed to understand their users, what they do and why they do it, learning their needs and problems in order to synthesize more effective solutions. Instead of raising themselves up to users’ level of knowledge, they drag the problem down to their level of ignorance and whale on it with their crappy tools to give the illusion of “productivity”. Instead of being problem solvers, they’re problem multipliers. Slap on several more layers of equally useless management, marketeers, beancounters, etc, and factor in that while deadweight accummulates expertise walks, and it’s no surprise most software projects are rolling Katamari disasters that makes everyone miserable until finally put out their misery; only for the whole process to start over again, with zero lessons learned. -- TL;DR: Programming is hard because programmers make it hard. Because they don’t want to do the job right. Because they’re children.
- kelvin0 7y ago
  So many generalizations in this paragraph. Not all programmers try to be heroes and cowboys throughout their whole careers. I am myself a programmer (25+ years doing it), and have known programmers my entire life. The distribution of certain personality traits is not better or worse in any given population. Besides our 'lazy' and 'childish' ways, we also have to contend with business constraints and everything needs to be shipped for yesterday. So although I do agree programmers should be more aware of the domain knowledge and be more 'client' oriented, it's also true that business stakeholders need to take the time and understand the impacts of their 'ship fast always' mentality. Too many times there is no counterweight to business decisions that lead to overwhelming technical debt, which is a great deservice to customers in long term business sense. It's never black or white.

BlameKaneda 7y ago

> "...we are dealing with incomplete information while the device that runs your program does not care you have incomplete information and wants to screw you the first time you do something not right in the slightest." Suppose you're becoming pretty comfortable with your skills in a foreign language and you've become pretty decent at speaking it. Occasionally you'll make a mistake---you'll pronounce a word incorrectly, misplace a verb, etc---and chances are the person you're speaking with will be able to figure out what you meant to say. Unfortunately, computers don't work that way. If you're writing a function and your syntax is incorrect, the browser won't understand what you're trying to do.

grawprog 7y ago
>Unfortunately, computers don't work that way. If you're writing a function and your syntax is incorrect, the browser won't understand what you're trying to do. Or worse, you and the computer have different understandings about what you're trying to do and it goes along quietly incorrectly for a while until that little mistake causes a problem somewhere else entirely because that one misunderstanding caused a cascade of misunderstandings that kept building up until it finally blew out everywhere all over your program and the quest to find where the problem started begins, well before the task of fixing the problem can start.

BurningFrog 7y ago

> But the problem is that they can't work really well with other developers (at a typical corp) who don't appreciate the problem the same way. The key is to not work at a typical corp! :)

_8ljf 7y ago

“I think the reason programming is difficult is that really we are dealing with incomplete information” Dealing with uncertainty and incompleteness is a core part of the job. The problem is that far too many programmers are gloryhounds and cowboys who think all that is beneath them; cramping their style when they’re trying to be the coding heroes. This is compounded by many programmers being lazy incurious bums who have zero interest in doing anything that isn’t writing code. They don’t want to learn the user’s problem domain, so they don’t. Instead they demand users describe exactly how the software should work down to the very last detail; but if users could do that for themselves then they wouldn’t need programmers to write it for them! Starting from ignorance, instead of writing software that encapsulates the users’ expert requirements, they write clever code that solves their own problems: entertaining themselves, and getting paid. Writing code is not hard. Any monkey can do that. The challenge is knowing what code to write; and that’s made needlessly hard by programmers who can’t be arsed to understand their users, what they do and why they do it, learning their needs and problems in order to synthesize more effective solutions. Instead of raising themselves up to users’ level of knowledge, they drag the problem down to their level of ignorance and whale on it with their crappy tools to give the illusion of “productivity”. Instead of being problem solvers, they’re problem multipliers. Slap on several more layers of equally useless management, marketeers, beancounters, etc, and factor in that while deadweight accummulates expertise walks, and it’s no surprise most software projects are rolling Katamari disasters that makes everyone miserable until finally put out their misery; only for the whole process to start over again, with zero lessons learned. -- TL;DR: Programming is hard because programmers make it hard. Because they don’t want to do the job right. Because they’re children.

kelvin0 7y ago
So many generalizations in this paragraph. Not all programmers try to be heroes and cowboys throughout their whole careers. I am myself a programmer (25+ years doing it), and have known programmers my entire life. The distribution of certain personality traits is not better or worse in any given population. Besides our 'lazy' and 'childish' ways, we also have to contend with business constraints and everything needs to be shipped for yesterday. So although I do agree programmers should be more aware of the domain knowledge and be more 'client' oriented, it's also true that business stakeholders need to take the time and understand the impacts of their 'ship fast always' mentality. Too many times there is no counterweight to business decisions that lead to overwhelming technical debt, which is a great deservice to customers in long term business sense. It's never black or white.