5 ms·

> You also want names to be easy to understood, therefore, longer than few letters. So, "count" instead of "cnt" or "c", in short, no abbreviations. Yet in car

by Fnoord 7y ago

> You also want names to be easy to understood, therefore, longer than few letters. So, "count" instead of "cnt" or "c", in short, no abbreviations. Yet in cars, BMW is an abbreviation. IBM is also an abbreviation, Microsoft gets abbreviated to MS, and NS to NextStep. "Nobody" calls BMW and IBM by their full name. Only people in IT know and/or use the abbreviation MS (which is functioning), and only people into NextStep and macOS use the abbreviation NS (also functioning). Would you want people to spell out Bayerische Motoren Werke all the time? With or without AG? Or would you want to use the English version, Bayern Motor Works? People all around the world know the acronym BMW; it does not have to be translated. Would you want the API calls to spell out NextStep? I feel like established abbreviations are perfectly fine, and some people/companies (entities) try to get established.

Jedd 7y ago
> "Nobody" calls BMW and IBM by their full name. In many cases these abbreviations have officially - legally - become the organisation's full name. In Australia, for example, the Colonial Sugar Refinery, known as CSR, officially changed their name to simply CSR (and only CSR) in the 1980's, IIRC. While I love the sound of Bavarian Driving Machines, it's a translation / transliteration (mostly the former), and doesn't add much value beyond nostalgia. Also, in Australia, these vehicles are mostly called Beemers anyway. (I'll note that I'm not a fan of Strine vernacular.) A small nitpick - BMW is not an acronym - it's an abbreviation or initialisation. Acronyms are pronounceable words.
- majewsky 7y ago
  > Bavarian Driving Machines It's actually "Bavarian Motor Works" which, coincidentally also comes out as BMW in English.
  - Jedd 7y ago
    Oh, thank you - I'd seen this listed as driving machine translation several decades ago and hadn't pursued it more, just assumed that was legit. Reviewing on Wikipedia I see that: "Bayerische Motoren Werke [...] This name is grammatically incorrect (in German, compound words must not contain spaces) ..." which is reassuring, given my own general bewilderment with German grammar.
- camillovisini 7y ago
  > A small nitpick - BMW is not an acronym BMW is an acronym for Bayerische Motoren Werke in German (or Bavarian Motor Works in English).
  - Jedd 7y ago
    > BMW is an acronym for Bayerische Motoren Werke To reiterate, an acronym must be able to be pronounced as a word.
    - tyingq 7y ago
      I can't find any support for that restriction on the various dictionary sites.
    - gwd 7y ago
      Language is 1) defined by its speakers, and 2) should be practical. It's just silly to invent a new word, "initialism", to distinguish between things you pronounce as a word and things you pronounce letter-by-letter. "NASA" and "FBI" are the same type of thing in most people's heads; there's no need to have a separate, awkward word for the second thing.
      - mplanchard 7y ago
        It’s not a newly invented word. Google books shows both “initialism” and “acronym” to have been in use since the 1800s. Saying we shouldn’t have more specific words because many people don’t know their meaning doesn’t make a lot of sense to me.
        gwd 7y ago
        > Saying we shouldn’t have more specific words because many people don’t know their meaning doesn’t make a lot of sense to me. I didn't say it was because people didn't know their meaning; I said it was because as far as most people are concerned, they're the same thing. I know what "initialism" means, but I choose not to use it, because as far as I'm concerned "NASA" and "FBI" are fundamentally the same thing. It's a waste of brain cells to figure out when to say "acronym" vs "initialism". As an example where I think such a distinction is important, I do consistently write "MiB" when I'm talking about 2^20 bits. I only saw it the first time maybe 10 years ago, but it immediately seemed to be to be both practical and useful to make that distinction. On the other hand, I never correct or ask clarification of people who use "MB", unless the difference becomes important. (Nor do I say "mebibyte", which is the proposed pronunciation of "MiB", because it's impossible to pronounce fluently.)
- Someone 7y ago
  That isn't universally accepted as part of the definition of 'acronym'. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/acronym https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/acronym: "a word (such as NATO, radar, or laser) formed from the initial letter or letters of each of the successive parts or major parts of a compound term also : an abbreviation (such as FBI) formed from initial letters" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acronym https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acronym: "The broader sense of acronym inclusive of terms pronounced as the individual letters (such as "TNT"), is sometimes proscribed, but is the term's original and more common meaning" https://www.dictionary.com/browse/acronym https://www.dictionary.com/browse/acronym: "1. a word formed from the initial letters or groups of letters of words in a set phrase or series of words and pronounced as a separate word, as Wac from Women's Army Corps, OPEC from Organization of Petroleum Exporting Countries, or loran from long-range navigation. 2. a set of initials representing a name, organization, or the like, with each letter pronounced separately; an initialism."
  - Fnoord 7y ago
    In this case it isn't merely a word; it is a brand. NATO, radar, and laser aren't brands. NATO is an organization, like FBI. Radar and laser are technologies. IBM and BMW, these are brands. Though I'm not sure that should make a difference for the definitions I'd say the following: * An acronym is an abbreviation. * Not every abbreviation is an acronym. Example: * FBI is an acronym and an abbreviation. * Feds is an abbreviation, but not an acronym.
  - Jedd 7y ago
    > That isn't universally accepted as part of the definition of 'acronym'. That's the general sentiment of this thread -- that it's not universally accepted. I'd refer to the Oxford English dictionary, but your citation from the Merriam-Webster contains what I understand is the defining feature: > "a word ..." With three examples of words (ie. pronounceable strings). The addenda of 'also: ... other things' is a bit of a cop-out. This is the distinction between a dictionary that strives to provide definition of language, versus recording popular (mis)uses.
- throwaway3157 7y ago
  Same with SGN in Scotland

by Fnoord 7y ago

Jedd 7y ago

> "Nobody" calls BMW and IBM by their full name. In many cases these abbreviations have officially - legally - become the organisation's full name. In Australia, for example, the Colonial Sugar Refinery, known as CSR, officially changed their name to simply CSR (and only CSR) in the 1980's, IIRC. While I love the sound of Bavarian Driving Machines, it's a translation / transliteration (mostly the former), and doesn't add much value beyond nostalgia. Also, in Australia, these vehicles are mostly called Beemers anyway. (I'll note that I'm not a fan of Strine vernacular.) A small nitpick - BMW is not an acronym - it's an abbreviation or initialisation. Acronyms are pronounceable words.

majewsky 7y ago
> Bavarian Driving Machines It's actually "Bavarian Motor Works" which, coincidentally also comes out as BMW in English.
- Jedd 7y ago
  Oh, thank you - I'd seen this listed as driving machine translation several decades ago and hadn't pursued it more, just assumed that was legit. Reviewing on Wikipedia I see that: "Bayerische Motoren Werke [...] This name is grammatically incorrect (in German, compound words must not contain spaces) ..." which is reassuring, given my own general bewilderment with German grammar.
camillovisini 7y ago
> A small nitpick - BMW is not an acronym BMW is an acronym for Bayerische Motoren Werke in German (or Bavarian Motor Works in English).
- Jedd 7y ago
  > BMW is an acronym for Bayerische Motoren Werke To reiterate, an acronym must be able to be pronounced as a word.
  - tyingq 7y ago
    I can't find any support for that restriction on the various dictionary sites.
  - gwd 7y ago
    Language is 1) defined by its speakers, and 2) should be practical. It's just silly to invent a new word, "initialism", to distinguish between things you pronounce as a word and things you pronounce letter-by-letter. "NASA" and "FBI" are the same type of thing in most people's heads; there's no need to have a separate, awkward word for the second thing.
    - mplanchard 7y ago
      It’s not a newly invented word. Google books shows both “initialism” and “acronym” to have been in use since the 1800s. Saying we shouldn’t have more specific words because many people don’t know their meaning doesn’t make a lot of sense to me.
      - gwd 7y ago
        > Saying we shouldn’t have more specific words because many people don’t know their meaning doesn’t make a lot of sense to me. I didn't say it was because people didn't know their meaning; I said it was because as far as most people are concerned, they're the same thing. I know what "initialism" means, but I choose not to use it, because as far as I'm concerned "NASA" and "FBI" are fundamentally the same thing. It's a waste of brain cells to figure out when to say "acronym" vs "initialism". As an example where I think such a distinction is important, I do consistently write "MiB" when I'm talking about 2^20 bits. I only saw it the first time maybe 10 years ago, but it immediately seemed to be to be both practical and useful to make that distinction. On the other hand, I never correct or ask clarification of people who use "MB", unless the difference becomes important. (Nor do I say "mebibyte", which is the proposed pronunciation of "MiB", because it's impossible to pronounce fluently.)
Someone 7y ago
That isn't universally accepted as part of the definition of 'acronym'. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/acronym https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/acronym: "a word (such as NATO, radar, or laser) formed from the initial letter or letters of each of the successive parts or major parts of a compound term also : an abbreviation (such as FBI) formed from initial letters" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acronym https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acronym: "The broader sense of acronym inclusive of terms pronounced as the individual letters (such as "TNT"), is sometimes proscribed, but is the term's original and more common meaning" https://www.dictionary.com/browse/acronym https://www.dictionary.com/browse/acronym: "1. a word formed from the initial letters or groups of letters of words in a set phrase or series of words and pronounced as a separate word, as Wac from Women's Army Corps, OPEC from Organization of Petroleum Exporting Countries, or loran from long-range navigation. 2. a set of initials representing a name, organization, or the like, with each letter pronounced separately; an initialism."
- Fnoord 7y ago
  In this case it isn't merely a word; it is a brand. NATO, radar, and laser aren't brands. NATO is an organization, like FBI. Radar and laser are technologies. IBM and BMW, these are brands. Though I'm not sure that should make a difference for the definitions I'd say the following: * An acronym is an abbreviation. * Not every abbreviation is an acronym. Example: * FBI is an acronym and an abbreviation. * Feds is an abbreviation, but not an acronym.
- Jedd 7y ago
  > That isn't universally accepted as part of the definition of 'acronym'. That's the general sentiment of this thread -- that it's not universally accepted. I'd refer to the Oxford English dictionary, but your citation from the Merriam-Webster contains what I understand is the defining feature: > "a word ..." With three examples of words (ie. pronounceable strings). The addenda of 'also: ... other things' is a bit of a cop-out. This is the distinction between a dictionary that strives to provide definition of language, versus recording popular (mis)uses.
throwaway3157 7y ago
Same with SGN in Scotland