15 ms·

The outsize influence of middle-school friends

269 points by rainhacker 7y ago

compiler-guy 7y ago
"I never had any friends later on like the ones I had when I was 12 - Jesus, did you?" --Stephen King in his short-story "The Body" (which became _Stand by Me_ the movie.) Totally relate to that.
- the_af 7y ago
  As an aside, I consider this a strength of Stephen King's best stories. The boys, their friendship and the kid-logic they employ in stories like The Body and It. By the time he wrote Dreamcatcher it had become a little hackneyed, but still.
- plughs 7y ago
  Relating to the article, that quote always makes me sad. I moved at 12, I didn't have friends. I feel like I missed something I can never get back.
  - greedo 7y ago
    Growing up I had problems fitting in and also experienced this sense of loss; not having the same shared experiences as people around me. I wonder now how other kids who "didn't fit in" for whatever reason (orientation, intelligence, economic status) feel? Or is everyone alienated to some extent, and just hides it?
    - kedean 7y ago
      I feel like I fit that grouping too. I didn't fit in most places as a kid (I never really figured out why, which still scares me), but I had a pretty good group of friends in elementary school who bonded over that fact. Unfortunately our middle school split each grade into two "teams", and I ended up on the wrong one. That meant I had none of the same classes, my locker was in a different hallway, and I had a different lunch period. Essentially, it was like I had moved. Thanks to that, middle school is the most forgettable time of my life. I sort of made a few more connections throughout those years, but nothing that lasted at all, and any time i've talked with those people since has been pretty awkward because we never really knew each other. Luckily that changed with high school, where more freedom was offered and so I found new friendships easier to make. I was eventually able to make at few friends, one of whom has been lifelong, by random happenstance of lunch tables. Interestingly, my wife had roughly the same experience of losing all her friends at the start of middle school and not really rebuilding until high school.
  - pnutjam 7y ago
    I moved after 2nd, 6th, and 9th grade. Luckily I have brothers close to my age. It's definitely impacted me and made close friendships confusing. I talk to people easily in public or when I run into them, but I don't think I'm on anyone invitation list outside of family. I've made the concious decision to keep my children in the same school, despite moving several times in the same area since I rent.
nck4222 7y ago
Tangentially related to this article, but moving/uprooting children can have fairly large negative consequences that affect them the rest of their lives. Here's one article [1] that found: "Elevated risks were observed for all examined outcomes, with excess risk seen among those exposed to multiple versus single relocations in a year. Risks grew incrementally with increasing age of exposure to mobility" Examined outcomes consisted of "attempted suicide, violent criminality, psychiatric illness, substance misuse, and natural and unnatural deaths." There are many more studies if you search for them that show a range of affects including worse academic performance and one I found that included a higher rate of hospitalization in kids who moved (although the cause was unclear). It's a traumatic event. [1] - https://www.ajpmonline.org/article/S0749-3797(16)30118-0/pdf https://www.ajpmonline.org/article/S0749-3797(16)30118-0/pdf [2] - http://theconversation.com/moving-home-can-affect-your-childrens-health-and-education-62738 http://theconversation.com/moving-home-can-affect-your-child...
- dmos62 7y ago
  Personal experience and reading points to the opposite conclusion. Trivia: amongst successful actors a disproportionate number of them had parents who had jobs that caused the family to move around a lot (traveling salesmen and the like). Out of the people I've met, those who were moving around a lot as kids had a different quality in my eyes. They also often continued moving around in later life. When you grow up in a single environment you find it harder to differentiate what is a feature of this local culture, and what is a feature of the "wider world", because you're stuck with only one data point.
  - reaperducer 7y ago
    A lot of the more successful, worldly people I know were "army brats" who moved around a lot. It gave them a different view of the world and a greater sense of independence and the need to do things for one's self.
    - ptero 7y ago
      This might not be a fair comparison. One of the risks of moving during vulnerable age is being seen as an outsider and excluded from groups at every new place. But army brats tend to cluster as parents get deployed to a large base, and having other somewhat friendly kids in a similar state can be a big help with avoiding exclusion.
downerending 7y ago
"But there is also a dark side to the social world of middle school, as anyone who has been through it will remember. Sixth graders who do not have friends are at risk of anxiety, depression, and low self-esteem. About 12 percent of the 6,000 sixth graders in Juvonen’s study were not named as a friend by anyone else. They had no one to sit with at lunch and no one to stick up for them when bullied." Very relate-able, unfortunately. In many ways, it set the tone for my life.
- reaperducer 7y ago
  This is going to be perhaps the least popular comment I've ever made on HN, but I will relate to you the advice my parents gave me when I was a socially awkward, introverted, bullied middle-schooler: Dad: Suck it up. Mom: Get over it. Being bullied in school doesn't mean you have to be bullied for life. As a kid, things can be stacked against you. You're surrounded by people who are older, stronger, more powerful, and more capable than you. But you don't have to be bullied as an adult if you don't allow it to happen. Adulthood is a much more even playing field than childhood. You have resources (HR department, change jobs, change neighborhoods, police, social services, lawyers, etc...) I know there are people who as adults are bullied. I know some of them. But in every case I've seen they've allowed a history of bullying to make them believe that they are powerless to change their circumstances. They're not. They choose to remain in that position because it's familiar, and change and confrontation are scary. But sometimes you've got to suck it up, act like an adult, and do adult things. And that sometimes means standing up for yourself.
  - curyous 7y ago
    Sometimes as an adult you need to suck it up and provide for your family, working in a small industry, at a small business, getting bullied at work every day because unless you retrain, there are no their options.
    - reaperducer 7y ago
      You are correct. I've been there. But these circumstances don't last forever. Life is constantly changing. Sometimes you can make the change. Sometimes you just have to wait.
kstenerud 7y ago
“Friendships take place in this larger context where there’s a status hierarchy,” she told me. “Kids know very well which kinds of kids are friends with one another and where they stand in that overall status hierarchy.” Huh. I never knew such a thing existed.
- WhompingWindows 7y ago
  Even monkeys and primates have it. Humans definitely have it, there are cliques, in-groups, out-groups, trying to get into various groups...it's obviously a culture at each school, but since it's observed in monkeys and primates, we know it's somewhat natural for humans.
- downerending 7y ago
  That's a very insighful comment. One of my ex's (who was otherwise a rather terrible person) absolutely poured herself into making sure that her daughters were well-liked and did well in this game. I think it's one of the best things she's done.
  - throwawayhhakdl 7y ago
    I had a male friend with a mother that did that. As a child I didn’t recognize it, but as it was explained to me in adulthood, the reason he played guitar, got quarterback lessons, and started to hang out in groups with cooler kids (or at least larger and larger groups of kids) was because his mother was orchestrating the whole thing to make him more popular. I’m pretty sure that put enormous pressure on him and filled him with anxieties. Last I heard he dropped out of undergrad, and his sisters all look like they have eating disorders. I wouldn’t try to touch my kid’s social status with a ten foot pole, aside from perhaps ensuring they have at least an average level of wealth relative to their peers. If anything popularity needs to be downplayed
  - jvm___ 7y ago
    How do you practically put this into effect? What steps can you take to help the kids without being a helicopter or intrusive patient.
riazrizvi 7y ago
So by Middle School, your social persona has ripened and you spend more effort on socializing than non-social play. And because of the bias we give first impressions, we form the strongest opinion of how we fit in socially during Middle School. Makes sense from personal experience. I went into Middle School with some asocial traits, which ultimately lead to very painful ‘friend’ betrayals... and the next 40 years I spent minimizing the importance of friends.
- 77pt77 7y ago
  > and the next 40 years I spent minimizing the importance of friends. Do you regret that now?
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - riazrizvi 7y ago
    Well I don't do regret, but now that this article has helped me realize I probably have a bias against investing in friendships, I can take action to compensate going forward. Put reminders in my phone to call people I know on a recurring basis etc.
ultrasounder 7y ago
My son who is on the autism spectrum always had difficulties making friends at school. Because, of sustained bullying in 6th grade we have kept him home and started home schooling. He loves the flexibility to learn anything he wants, and the lack of social anxiety. BUT, off late he has started interacting more with our neighborhood kids more and he is really starting to enjoy their company.They do a lot of outdoors things and they actually make things. SO, it does seem like kids(esp boys) tend to make more meaningful relationships right around middle school some of which tend to last a long time at least until they go separate ways after high-school. Just my own experience with my son.
sjg007 7y ago
Happened to me. My best friend went to the private school and I had to go to public school. It definitely impacted my grades. I had asked my parents to send me to the private school too but it wasn't in the cards. And by best friend I mean someone who was a peer with similar work ethic and intelligence so we learnt from each other. That was traumatic. I had made that friend after moving to a different state in the 5th grade. I remember leaving my friends as being somewhat traumatic but not as traumatic as the different high school thing. I sort of owe my career to him and his family since they were software entrepreneurs in the 90s.
beat 7y ago
My middle school years were pretty miserable due to family drama stuff. I'm only in touch with two friends from that era (via FB). I contrast this to my kids, who went to a really great charter school from grades 7-12. Their core social groups are still made of their junior high and high school friends - my daughter (age 25) was just an attendant for one of those friends' weddings, and another one of their jr high friends was also an attendant. For someone in their mid-20s to have a whole social network of friends they've known half their life amazes me.
- iovrthoughtthis 7y ago
  Same boat for me. Solidarity.
ineedasername 7y ago
Telling your child "you'll make new friends" seems to be about the least helpful and least sensitive thing you could say. As though friendships were some fungible substance of social interaction, none of any more value or special quality than another. Though I do wonder if the trauma of severed relationships is helped these days by social media, cell phones, video chat, etc. When I was growing up, even long distance phone calls were too much money for regular use to stay in touch. Moving away, or having a friend move away, was for all practical purposes similar to losing a friend to death. There was a very good chance you'd never see them again.
smoyer 7y ago
Lunch in middle school was absolutely the worst part of my life ... reading this article, I'm amazed that I didn't grow up to be a serial-killer. My family also relocated for my eighth-grade year and, returning in ninth grade was especially horrible. I like like the tag-line of the Mortified podcast - "We are freaks, we are fragile ... and we all survived". Now I'm wondering how many of my misfit acquaintances didn't actually survive.
jedberg 7y ago
> “Middle school is about lunch.” I never really thought about it, but 30 years out, pretty much the only memories I have from middle school are lunch time. I remember a few other things, but at least 90% of what I remember from middle school happened at lunch.
cletus 7y ago
So I only moved twice during the school years. This is a lot less than some but I really think it did me no favors at all. The first was at the end of the third grade. Company town shutting down. There wasn’t much choice here. I moved to a bigger but still small town and even though I moved between school years I still found pre-existing and entrenched friendships. Like many commenting here in never has the greatest social skills to begin with and I don’t think I ever really fit in. Moved again after grade 7 (At the time years 8 was the first year of high school). It was a horrible place and I deeply regret efforts by my parents to send me to boarding school. But I fell in with people who themselves were outcasts and I learned the lesson that even outcasts can climb a rung or two by throwing other outcasts under the bus. After a year of that I actually visited my old town and friends but there just wasn’t much attachment there and I realized just hope much had changed in a year of separation such that I never visited them again. I don’t hear them Ill will, to be clear. We had just diverged. I don’t miss anything snotty high school. I don’t miss anyone from high school. There were some nice people but none I was close friends with. My own limitations played a part in that but it is what it is. There was one more move in high school but it didn’t result in a change in high school. It did however lead to a loss of independence and power. Previously I rode my bike to school. After the move I had no choice but to take the school bus (more opportunities to be bullied) and the way this worked was I arrived at school 40 minutes before it started and had to stay 40 minutes after it finished. Compounding to that the friends I did have just didn’t live near the new house and I lost the ability to visit them without being driven. I think I hated that more than any of the moves. A lot of people who go to college (as I did) get their lifelong circles of friends from college instead. I don’t think I ever learned how to do this so kind of missed out on this too. I don’t know how much of this I can blame on moves. Luck on who else is in your peer group must play a huge factor. All I know is it didn’t help, I didn’t enjoy it and there are literally zero people I have any contact with from the school years.
dropoutcoder 7y ago
My middle school years consisted of being bullied: verbally and physically abused. I’ve been grinding my teeth since the first physical violence incident at age 11 that involved numerous full blast blows to my head. My response meanwhile was regretful bullying of a few other kids in response. The cap to this was additional physical violence against me before entering high school, in the presence of law enforcement who stood aside and allowed the punishment to be inflicted, likely due to the perception of me having been a scumbag to a popular kid in sixth grade, and/or an old school non-interventionist attitude. By the end of middle school, the lifetime of suicidal ideation was cemented. The end result was extreme social immaturity entering high school and a downward spiral of an unwanted life drifting towards destitution and homelessness at middle age. My neighborhood peers were religious tribalists who looked down upon me and essentially formed my perceptions of the world as a religious outsider threatened by promises of eternal torture for non compliance. I dream of suicide around the clock and remain afraid of death and have zero desire for anything but preparing for death. Needless to say, I don’t find this species to be very pleasant or deserving of my time or participation and certainly not of any offspring. This, of course, is sugar coating the reality: I think this species is total rubbish, and regardless of how many nice people exist, there’s been a never ending string of low quality people that I’ve encountered over the past 30 years, myself included. I remain fearful of facing the unknown of death despite decades dreaming of dying. Zero desire for help of any kind; I inherited a fortune and gave it away. I pray for forgiveness and mercy in the afterlife and remain eternally fearful, having been indoctrinated by peers with promises of eternal torture as a consequence for failure to engage in a particular belief system (coupled with the tribal violence by participants of said religion). Fuck this species. Sorry: the solution is for me to die and wash away my broken brain. Some people simply don’t want to be helped. The natural laws of evolution are met with my lack of procreation and my suicide washes away my broken experience so others can have a better chance. Accordingly I’ve given away my inheritance and gone homeless in preparation. So thankful it’s almost over and infinitely scared nonetheless. At some point soon I’ll simply ask God or the universe to forgive me for failing to be “strong enough” to “overcome” my little not particularly uncommon tragedy. Sorry.
- loteck 7y ago
  You're a survivor of repeated trauma. I wish society could have rescued you and shown you a different life. I'm sorry that didn't happen.
mirimir 7y ago
My memories of childhood friends are utterly bittersweet. When I was ~9, I fell in with a group that played with WWII munitions that we found in the woods. A few years later, two of my younger friends were seriously injured. I was never overtly blamed, but I felt guilty. And then, about a decade later, now in the US, I fell in with hippies, and got into dealing LSD. But then a couple friends got busted. So I dealt drugs to pay for their defense. My point, I guess, is that I never really learned how to actually maintain friendships. I am capable of making friends, and doing what friends do for friends. But it always feels like I'm playing a role. Maybe that's why I've become an anonymous coward.
- alexpetralia 7y ago
  I wonder if you'd find this essay I wrote useful: https://alexpetralia.github.io/2018/04/02/NL-2018-04-02.html https://alexpetralia.github.io/2018/04/02/NL-2018-04-02.html I do very much believe it's a skill that takes effort and investment to develop over years (our entire lives really).
  - mirimir 7y ago
    Thanks, that's insightful.
- saber6 7y ago
  > My memories of childhood friends are utterly bittersweet. When I was ~9, I fell in with a group that played with WWII munitions that we found in the woods. A few years later, two of my younger friends were seriously injured. I was never overtly blamed, but I felt guilty. Care to share more (as much as you feel comfortable)? That's a very unconventional childhood experience! Thanks!
  - yellowapple 7y ago
    IIRC this was (and still is!) pretty common in Europe after World War II.
  - mirimir 7y ago
jordanbeiber 7y ago
I wonder if theres a link to the result of studies on children that are forced to move around: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-kids-moving/moving-during-childhood-linked-to-poor-mental-health-idUSKCN0SV2JT20151106 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-kids-moving/moving... On the radio I heard the result of a Danish study mirroring this result.

269 points by rainhacker 7y ago

"I never had any friends later on like the ones I had when I was 12 - Jesus, did you?" --Stephen King in his short-story "The Body" (which became _Stand by Me_ the movie.) Totally relate to that.

the_af 7y ago
As an aside, I consider this a strength of Stephen King's best stories. The boys, their friendship and the kid-logic they employ in stories like The Body and It. By the time he wrote Dreamcatcher it had become a little hackneyed, but still.
plughs 7y ago
Relating to the article, that quote always makes me sad. I moved at 12, I didn't have friends. I feel like I missed something I can never get back.
- greedo 7y ago
  Growing up I had problems fitting in and also experienced this sense of loss; not having the same shared experiences as people around me. I wonder now how other kids who "didn't fit in" for whatever reason (orientation, intelligence, economic status) feel? Or is everyone alienated to some extent, and just hides it?
  - kedean 7y ago
    I feel like I fit that grouping too. I didn't fit in most places as a kid (I never really figured out why, which still scares me), but I had a pretty good group of friends in elementary school who bonded over that fact. Unfortunately our middle school split each grade into two "teams", and I ended up on the wrong one. That meant I had none of the same classes, my locker was in a different hallway, and I had a different lunch period. Essentially, it was like I had moved. Thanks to that, middle school is the most forgettable time of my life. I sort of made a few more connections throughout those years, but nothing that lasted at all, and any time i've talked with those people since has been pretty awkward because we never really knew each other. Luckily that changed with high school, where more freedom was offered and so I found new friendships easier to make. I was eventually able to make at few friends, one of whom has been lifelong, by random happenstance of lunch tables. Interestingly, my wife had roughly the same experience of losing all her friends at the start of middle school and not really rebuilding until high school.
- pnutjam 7y ago
  I moved after 2nd, 6th, and 9th grade. Luckily I have brothers close to my age. It's definitely impacted me and made close friendships confusing. I talk to people easily in public or when I run into them, but I don't think I'm on anyone invitation list outside of family. I've made the concious decision to keep my children in the same school, despite moving several times in the same area since I rent.

nck4222 7y ago

Tangentially related to this article, but moving/uprooting children can have fairly large negative consequences that affect them the rest of their lives. Here's one article [1] that found: "Elevated risks were observed for all examined outcomes, with excess risk seen among those exposed to multiple versus single relocations in a year. Risks grew incrementally with increasing age of exposure to mobility" Examined outcomes consisted of "attempted suicide, violent criminality, psychiatric illness, substance misuse, and natural and unnatural deaths." There are many more studies if you search for them that show a range of affects including worse academic performance and one I found that included a higher rate of hospitalization in kids who moved (although the cause was unclear). It's a traumatic event. [1] - https://www.ajpmonline.org/article/S0749-3797(16)30118-0/pdf https://www.ajpmonline.org/article/S0749-3797(16)30118-0/pdf [2] - http://theconversation.com/moving-home-can-affect-your-childrens-health-and-education-62738 http://theconversation.com/moving-home-can-affect-your-child...

dmos62 7y ago
Personal experience and reading points to the opposite conclusion. Trivia: amongst successful actors a disproportionate number of them had parents who had jobs that caused the family to move around a lot (traveling salesmen and the like). Out of the people I've met, those who were moving around a lot as kids had a different quality in my eyes. They also often continued moving around in later life. When you grow up in a single environment you find it harder to differentiate what is a feature of this local culture, and what is a feature of the "wider world", because you're stuck with only one data point.
- reaperducer 7y ago
  A lot of the more successful, worldly people I know were "army brats" who moved around a lot. It gave them a different view of the world and a greater sense of independence and the need to do things for one's self.
  - ptero 7y ago
    This might not be a fair comparison. One of the risks of moving during vulnerable age is being seen as an outsider and excluded from groups at every new place. But army brats tend to cluster as parents get deployed to a large base, and having other somewhat friendly kids in a similar state can be a big help with avoiding exclusion.

downerending 7y ago

"But there is also a dark side to the social world of middle school, as anyone who has been through it will remember. Sixth graders who do not have friends are at risk of anxiety, depression, and low self-esteem. About 12 percent of the 6,000 sixth graders in Juvonen’s study were not named as a friend by anyone else. They had no one to sit with at lunch and no one to stick up for them when bullied." Very relate-able, unfortunately. In many ways, it set the tone for my life.

reaperducer 7y ago
This is going to be perhaps the least popular comment I've ever made on HN, but I will relate to you the advice my parents gave me when I was a socially awkward, introverted, bullied middle-schooler: Dad: Suck it up. Mom: Get over it. Being bullied in school doesn't mean you have to be bullied for life. As a kid, things can be stacked against you. You're surrounded by people who are older, stronger, more powerful, and more capable than you. But you don't have to be bullied as an adult if you don't allow it to happen. Adulthood is a much more even playing field than childhood. You have resources (HR department, change jobs, change neighborhoods, police, social services, lawyers, etc...) I know there are people who as adults are bullied. I know some of them. But in every case I've seen they've allowed a history of bullying to make them believe that they are powerless to change their circumstances. They're not. They choose to remain in that position because it's familiar, and change and confrontation are scary. But sometimes you've got to suck it up, act like an adult, and do adult things. And that sometimes means standing up for yourself.
- curyous 7y ago
  Sometimes as an adult you need to suck it up and provide for your family, working in a small industry, at a small business, getting bullied at work every day because unless you retrain, there are no their options.
  - reaperducer 7y ago
    You are correct. I've been there. But these circumstances don't last forever. Life is constantly changing. Sometimes you can make the change. Sometimes you just have to wait.

kstenerud 7y ago

“Friendships take place in this larger context where there’s a status hierarchy,” she told me. “Kids know very well which kinds of kids are friends with one another and where they stand in that overall status hierarchy.” Huh. I never knew such a thing existed.

WhompingWindows 7y ago
Even monkeys and primates have it. Humans definitely have it, there are cliques, in-groups, out-groups, trying to get into various groups...it's obviously a culture at each school, but since it's observed in monkeys and primates, we know it's somewhat natural for humans.
downerending 7y ago
That's a very insighful comment. One of my ex's (who was otherwise a rather terrible person) absolutely poured herself into making sure that her daughters were well-liked and did well in this game. I think it's one of the best things she's done.
- throwawayhhakdl 7y ago
  I had a male friend with a mother that did that. As a child I didn’t recognize it, but as it was explained to me in adulthood, the reason he played guitar, got quarterback lessons, and started to hang out in groups with cooler kids (or at least larger and larger groups of kids) was because his mother was orchestrating the whole thing to make him more popular. I’m pretty sure that put enormous pressure on him and filled him with anxieties. Last I heard he dropped out of undergrad, and his sisters all look like they have eating disorders. I wouldn’t try to touch my kid’s social status with a ten foot pole, aside from perhaps ensuring they have at least an average level of wealth relative to their peers. If anything popularity needs to be downplayed
- jvm___ 7y ago
  How do you practically put this into effect? What steps can you take to help the kids without being a helicopter or intrusive patient.

riazrizvi 7y ago

So by Middle School, your social persona has ripened and you spend more effort on socializing than non-social play. And because of the bias we give first impressions, we form the strongest opinion of how we fit in socially during Middle School. Makes sense from personal experience. I went into Middle School with some asocial traits, which ultimately lead to very painful ‘friend’ betrayals... and the next 40 years I spent minimizing the importance of friends.

77pt77 7y ago
> and the next 40 years I spent minimizing the importance of friends. Do you regret that now?
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- riazrizvi 7y ago
  Well I don't do regret, but now that this article has helped me realize I probably have a bias against investing in friendships, I can take action to compensate going forward. Put reminders in my phone to call people I know on a recurring basis etc.

ultrasounder 7y ago

My son who is on the autism spectrum always had difficulties making friends at school. Because, of sustained bullying in 6th grade we have kept him home and started home schooling. He loves the flexibility to learn anything he wants, and the lack of social anxiety. BUT, off late he has started interacting more with our neighborhood kids more and he is really starting to enjoy their company.They do a lot of outdoors things and they actually make things. SO, it does seem like kids(esp boys) tend to make more meaningful relationships right around middle school some of which tend to last a long time at least until they go separate ways after high-school. Just my own experience with my son.

sjg007 7y ago

Happened to me. My best friend went to the private school and I had to go to public school. It definitely impacted my grades. I had asked my parents to send me to the private school too but it wasn't in the cards. And by best friend I mean someone who was a peer with similar work ethic and intelligence so we learnt from each other. That was traumatic. I had made that friend after moving to a different state in the 5th grade. I remember leaving my friends as being somewhat traumatic but not as traumatic as the different high school thing. I sort of owe my career to him and his family since they were software entrepreneurs in the 90s.

beat 7y ago

My middle school years were pretty miserable due to family drama stuff. I'm only in touch with two friends from that era (via FB). I contrast this to my kids, who went to a really great charter school from grades 7-12. Their core social groups are still made of their junior high and high school friends - my daughter (age 25) was just an attendant for one of those friends' weddings, and another one of their jr high friends was also an attendant. For someone in their mid-20s to have a whole social network of friends they've known half their life amazes me.

iovrthoughtthis 7y ago
Same boat for me. Solidarity.

ineedasername 7y ago

Telling your child "you'll make new friends" seems to be about the least helpful and least sensitive thing you could say. As though friendships were some fungible substance of social interaction, none of any more value or special quality than another. Though I do wonder if the trauma of severed relationships is helped these days by social media, cell phones, video chat, etc. When I was growing up, even long distance phone calls were too much money for regular use to stay in touch. Moving away, or having a friend move away, was for all practical purposes similar to losing a friend to death. There was a very good chance you'd never see them again.

smoyer 7y ago

Lunch in middle school was absolutely the worst part of my life ... reading this article, I'm amazed that I didn't grow up to be a serial-killer. My family also relocated for my eighth-grade year and, returning in ninth grade was especially horrible. I like like the tag-line of the Mortified podcast - "We are freaks, we are fragile ... and we all survived". Now I'm wondering how many of my misfit acquaintances didn't actually survive.

jedberg 7y ago

> “Middle school is about lunch.” I never really thought about it, but 30 years out, pretty much the only memories I have from middle school are lunch time. I remember a few other things, but at least 90% of what I remember from middle school happened at lunch.

cletus 7y ago

So I only moved twice during the school years. This is a lot less than some but I really think it did me no favors at all. The first was at the end of the third grade. Company town shutting down. There wasn’t much choice here. I moved to a bigger but still small town and even though I moved between school years I still found pre-existing and entrenched friendships. Like many commenting here in never has the greatest social skills to begin with and I don’t think I ever really fit in. Moved again after grade 7 (At the time years 8 was the first year of high school). It was a horrible place and I deeply regret efforts by my parents to send me to boarding school. But I fell in with people who themselves were outcasts and I learned the lesson that even outcasts can climb a rung or two by throwing other outcasts under the bus. After a year of that I actually visited my old town and friends but there just wasn’t much attachment there and I realized just hope much had changed in a year of separation such that I never visited them again. I don’t hear them Ill will, to be clear. We had just diverged. I don’t miss anything snotty high school. I don’t miss anyone from high school. There were some nice people but none I was close friends with. My own limitations played a part in that but it is what it is. There was one more move in high school but it didn’t result in a change in high school. It did however lead to a loss of independence and power. Previously I rode my bike to school. After the move I had no choice but to take the school bus (more opportunities to be bullied) and the way this worked was I arrived at school 40 minutes before it started and had to stay 40 minutes after it finished. Compounding to that the friends I did have just didn’t live near the new house and I lost the ability to visit them without being driven. I think I hated that more than any of the moves. A lot of people who go to college (as I did) get their lifelong circles of friends from college instead. I don’t think I ever learned how to do this so kind of missed out on this too. I don’t know how much of this I can blame on moves. Luck on who else is in your peer group must play a huge factor. All I know is it didn’t help, I didn’t enjoy it and there are literally zero people I have any contact with from the school years.

dropoutcoder 7y ago

My middle school years consisted of being bullied: verbally and physically abused. I’ve been grinding my teeth since the first physical violence incident at age 11 that involved numerous full blast blows to my head. My response meanwhile was regretful bullying of a few other kids in response. The cap to this was additional physical violence against me before entering high school, in the presence of law enforcement who stood aside and allowed the punishment to be inflicted, likely due to the perception of me having been a scumbag to a popular kid in sixth grade, and/or an old school non-interventionist attitude. By the end of middle school, the lifetime of suicidal ideation was cemented. The end result was extreme social immaturity entering high school and a downward spiral of an unwanted life drifting towards destitution and homelessness at middle age. My neighborhood peers were religious tribalists who looked down upon me and essentially formed my perceptions of the world as a religious outsider threatened by promises of eternal torture for non compliance. I dream of suicide around the clock and remain afraid of death and have zero desire for anything but preparing for death. Needless to say, I don’t find this species to be very pleasant or deserving of my time or participation and certainly not of any offspring. This, of course, is sugar coating the reality: I think this species is total rubbish, and regardless of how many nice people exist, there’s been a never ending string of low quality people that I’ve encountered over the past 30 years, myself included. I remain fearful of facing the unknown of death despite decades dreaming of dying. Zero desire for help of any kind; I inherited a fortune and gave it away. I pray for forgiveness and mercy in the afterlife and remain eternally fearful, having been indoctrinated by peers with promises of eternal torture as a consequence for failure to engage in a particular belief system (coupled with the tribal violence by participants of said religion). Fuck this species. Sorry: the solution is for me to die and wash away my broken brain. Some people simply don’t want to be helped. The natural laws of evolution are met with my lack of procreation and my suicide washes away my broken experience so others can have a better chance. Accordingly I’ve given away my inheritance and gone homeless in preparation. So thankful it’s almost over and infinitely scared nonetheless. At some point soon I’ll simply ask God or the universe to forgive me for failing to be “strong enough” to “overcome” my little not particularly uncommon tragedy. Sorry.

loteck 7y ago
You're a survivor of repeated trauma. I wish society could have rescued you and shown you a different life. I'm sorry that didn't happen.

mirimir 7y ago

My memories of childhood friends are utterly bittersweet. When I was ~9, I fell in with a group that played with WWII munitions that we found in the woods. A few years later, two of my younger friends were seriously injured. I was never overtly blamed, but I felt guilty. And then, about a decade later, now in the US, I fell in with hippies, and got into dealing LSD. But then a couple friends got busted. So I dealt drugs to pay for their defense. My point, I guess, is that I never really learned how to actually maintain friendships. I am capable of making friends, and doing what friends do for friends. But it always feels like I'm playing a role. Maybe that's why I've become an anonymous coward.

alexpetralia 7y ago
I wonder if you'd find this essay I wrote useful: https://alexpetralia.github.io/2018/04/02/NL-2018-04-02.html https://alexpetralia.github.io/2018/04/02/NL-2018-04-02.html I do very much believe it's a skill that takes effort and investment to develop over years (our entire lives really).
- mirimir 7y ago
  Thanks, that's insightful.
saber6 7y ago
> My memories of childhood friends are utterly bittersweet. When I was ~9, I fell in with a group that played with WWII munitions that we found in the woods. A few years later, two of my younger friends were seriously injured. I was never overtly blamed, but I felt guilty. Care to share more (as much as you feel comfortable)? That's a very unconventional childhood experience! Thanks!
- yellowapple 7y ago
  IIRC this was (and still is!) pretty common in Europe after World War II.
- mirimir 7y ago

jordanbeiber 7y ago

I wonder if theres a link to the result of studies on children that are forced to move around: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-kids-moving/moving-during-childhood-linked-to-poor-mental-health-idUSKCN0SV2JT20151106 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-kids-moving/moving... On the radio I heard the result of a Danish study mirroring this result.