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One big difference is that, at least in many jurisdictions, new (non-software) engineers need to survive what amounts to an apprenticeship. A second one is pass

by _jal 7y ago

One big difference is that, at least in many jurisdictions, new (non-software) engineers need to survive what amounts to an apprenticeship. A second one is passing standardized exams and demonstrating experience before achieving the title. Now, I don't think apprenticeships are unmitigated positives - another function they serve is to limit field entry. But they are, I think, far better than what "we" do, and sorry, pair programming is not a substitute. I don't know what does AutoCAD have to do with anything. I use it for modeling parts that I machine as a hobby; that doesn't make me a structural engineer.

wruza 7y ago
By AutoCAD I mean some app that helps you to design architecture and components and then validate these against existing rules. Not a literal mechanics/blueprints AutoCAD, but ?-CAD for software development. >But they are, I think, far better than what "we" do They should be far better, but an engineer is not an abstract position. If all it needs to be an SWE is to know 3-book algorithms and some patterns (just my uneducated guess), then it is not engineering. See my other comment for details. Yes, a CS degree adds to ones competence, but it is like saying that physics degree allows you to build an elevator. It doesn’t, it will be just a nice science-grade dog house level elevator, because learning physics doesn’t make you know all standards that elevators require, legally and practically.
- exdsq 7y ago
  Maybe something like a UML or data-flow diagram could be similar? There are more formal specifications you can do, as part of 'formal methods', which I think might be closer to some engineering disciplines [0] - here's one from where I work. I do think software engineering as a discipline exists. Looking at the definition written by the American Engineers' Council [1], there have definitely been teams I've worked on where we met this criteria. There are teams like the Lockheed shuttle group who average 1 bug per release that clearly embody this criteria too. Also, my CS Masters is accredited as meeting the educational requirements for Chartered Engineer status (which I'm hoping to achieve once I finish) so it's clearly accepted by some in the engineering community! [0] https://hydra.iohk.io/build/789825/download/1/ledger-spec.pdf https://hydra.iohk.io/build/789825/download/1/ledger-spec.pd... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engineering https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engineering
vonmoltke 7y ago
> One big difference is that, at least in many jurisdictions, new (non-software) engineers need to survive what amounts to an apprenticeship. A second one is passing standardized exams and demonstrating experience before achieving the title. "[M]any"? Outside of a handful of really anal jurisdictions like Canada I am not aware of any where this is a requirement. I chose not to go this route because I didn't see the value in it for the type of electrical engineering I was interested in.

by _jal 7y ago

wruza 7y ago

By AutoCAD I mean some app that helps you to design architecture and components and then validate these against existing rules. Not a literal mechanics/blueprints AutoCAD, but ?-CAD for software development. >But they are, I think, far better than what "we" do They should be far better, but an engineer is not an abstract position. If all it needs to be an SWE is to know 3-book algorithms and some patterns (just my uneducated guess), then it is not engineering. See my other comment for details. Yes, a CS degree adds to ones competence, but it is like saying that physics degree allows you to build an elevator. It doesn’t, it will be just a nice science-grade dog house level elevator, because learning physics doesn’t make you know all standards that elevators require, legally and practically.

exdsq 7y ago
Maybe something like a UML or data-flow diagram could be similar? There are more formal specifications you can do, as part of 'formal methods', which I think might be closer to some engineering disciplines [0] - here's one from where I work. I do think software engineering as a discipline exists. Looking at the definition written by the American Engineers' Council [1], there have definitely been teams I've worked on where we met this criteria. There are teams like the Lockheed shuttle group who average 1 bug per release that clearly embody this criteria too. Also, my CS Masters is accredited as meeting the educational requirements for Chartered Engineer status (which I'm hoping to achieve once I finish) so it's clearly accepted by some in the engineering community! [0] https://hydra.iohk.io/build/789825/download/1/ledger-spec.pdf https://hydra.iohk.io/build/789825/download/1/ledger-spec.pd... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engineering https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engineering

vonmoltke 7y ago

> One big difference is that, at least in many jurisdictions, new (non-software) engineers need to survive what amounts to an apprenticeship. A second one is passing standardized exams and demonstrating experience before achieving the title. "[M]any"? Outside of a handful of really anal jurisdictions like Canada I am not aware of any where this is a requirement. I chose not to go this route because I didn't see the value in it for the type of electrical engineering I was interested in.