6 ms·

My most important passphrases are very complicated, and I lose the ability to reproduce them from muscle memory (the only place they exist) after a few days of

My most important passphrases are very complicated, and I lose the ability to reproduce them from muscle memory (the only place they exist) after a few days of non-use. How can you prove passphrases are remembered?

gamblor956 7y ago
They don't have to prove that you remember the passphrases. They just have to show that the encrypted devices/partitions/whatever were in your custody at the time of encryption. Then you have to (a) show why you weren't the one to encrypt the devices or (b) make a 5th Amendment argument about why you don't have to turn over the encryption key during which time you may be incarcerated. "I forgot" is generally not a valid defense.
- Forbo 7y ago
  > "I forgot" is generally not a valid defense. The number of times that people invoke "I don't recall" while giving testimony under oath says otherwise.
  - LanceH 7y ago
    When they start applying these standards to politicians, then I'll be ok with it trickling down the people.
    - incompatible 7y ago
      It's really a different situation. The ruling party is basically above the law in the US, thanks to presidential pardons and control of the impeachment process.
      - LanceH 7y ago
        Sure. It's a false hypothesis, so it will never happen, and I can consistently say that I'll never be ok with this being applied to the people.
      - 1000units 7y ago
        You're halfway to an important insight, but your partisanism is blinding.
  - gamblor956 7y ago
    We're talking about two very different things. And for the record, a defendant claiming "they forgot" something within their control is valid circumstantial evidence of guilt or responsibility. When claimed by the police or prosecution witness, it's just as much valid evidence against guilt, and has been used many times to get defendants off. Basically, it's valid circumstantial evidence against the party/side that makes the claim of forgetfulness.
- solveit 7y ago
  "I encrypted the device but don't have the key" isn't a defense to being compelled to decrypt the device?
  - 1000units 7y ago
    For the third time: the courts are a joke. edit: I hope every boot-licker that downvotes this comment gets to learn the hard way.
    - CommieBobDole 7y ago
      I don't think people are downvoting you because they disagree with your assertion that the court system is in some way bad, they're downvoting you because you're just basically saying 'courts sux man' with no further information, which adds nothing to the discussion. Also now they're probably downvoting you because you're calling them 'bootlickers'.
      - 1000units 7y ago
        I led with substantive comments. The greater issue is nerds live in an overly comfortable fantasy world, and it's painful to acknowledge the true nature of the power structures we inhabit and are subject to, in all their ugliness. Much easier to distract yourself litigating the sophistry that blankets all of these things. God forbid somebody tugs on the blanket.
  - nordsieck 7y ago
    > "I encrypted the device but don't have the key" isn't a defense to being compelled to decrypt the device? Try to think about it from the court's point of view. The truth could be: A. You legitimately forgot. B. You're lying. I know which one Occam's Razor favors.
    - function_seven 7y ago
      The whole point of a justice system is that Occam and his Razor are a terrible way of determining guilt. Yeah, I'd bet that most people claiming to have forgotten a key or password are lying. But so what? How do you differentiate those who're concealing vs. those that legitimately don't know the string of characters? If they float, they're a witch, if they sink, then I guess they're not? (That's what 18 months for contempt is akin to)
- harikb 7y ago
  Hypothetically, he might have remembered his real password but the Government didn’t protect the bit-rot capable hard drive and it is the hard drive that is now bad. May be sector level checksums and probabilities rule them out but it is possible in the grand scheme of things
  - rootusrootus 7y ago
    I wonder how it would work out if you confidently gave the wrong password. Edit: I guess this case actually answers that, to some extent. Before he said he forgot the password, he tried a couple for them.
- TacticalCoder 7y ago
  > "I forgot" is generally not a valid defense. Am I the only here who had to re-install Linux after x weeks or months of uptime because the LUKS password was forgotten? It happened to me more than once. How is it "generally not" (but sometimes yes?) a valid defense when it's a fact that people are losing their passwords? The internet is full of messages like: "I forgot my LUKS password but remember it had the name of my dog in it" (not advising to do that btw), "Is there a way to crack my own password?" P.S: I've got backup of all my files and configuration files, so re-installing Linux ain't a problem: theft / flood / fire / full-disk encryption password lost... I wouldn't lose anything.
  - jliptzin 7y ago
    Yea, makes no sense to me. I’ve forgotten many passwords for things I thought I’d never forget, including a bitcoin wallet. I can only imagine how hard it would be not using the password for months or years because law enforcement seized your device, and then having to produce it.

gamblor956 7y ago

They don't have to prove that you remember the passphrases. They just have to show that the encrypted devices/partitions/whatever were in your custody at the time of encryption. Then you have to (a) show why you weren't the one to encrypt the devices or (b) make a 5th Amendment argument about why you don't have to turn over the encryption key during which time you may be incarcerated. "I forgot" is generally not a valid defense.

Forbo 7y ago
> "I forgot" is generally not a valid defense. The number of times that people invoke "I don't recall" while giving testimony under oath says otherwise.
- LanceH 7y ago
  When they start applying these standards to politicians, then I'll be ok with it trickling down the people.
  - incompatible 7y ago
    It's really a different situation. The ruling party is basically above the law in the US, thanks to presidential pardons and control of the impeachment process.
    - LanceH 7y ago
      Sure. It's a false hypothesis, so it will never happen, and I can consistently say that I'll never be ok with this being applied to the people.
    - 1000units 7y ago
      You're halfway to an important insight, but your partisanism is blinding.
- gamblor956 7y ago
  We're talking about two very different things. And for the record, a defendant claiming "they forgot" something within their control is valid circumstantial evidence of guilt or responsibility. When claimed by the police or prosecution witness, it's just as much valid evidence against guilt, and has been used many times to get defendants off. Basically, it's valid circumstantial evidence against the party/side that makes the claim of forgetfulness.
solveit 7y ago
"I encrypted the device but don't have the key" isn't a defense to being compelled to decrypt the device?
- 1000units 7y ago
  For the third time: the courts are a joke. edit: I hope every boot-licker that downvotes this comment gets to learn the hard way.
  - CommieBobDole 7y ago
    I don't think people are downvoting you because they disagree with your assertion that the court system is in some way bad, they're downvoting you because you're just basically saying 'courts sux man' with no further information, which adds nothing to the discussion. Also now they're probably downvoting you because you're calling them 'bootlickers'.
    - 1000units 7y ago
      I led with substantive comments. The greater issue is nerds live in an overly comfortable fantasy world, and it's painful to acknowledge the true nature of the power structures we inhabit and are subject to, in all their ugliness. Much easier to distract yourself litigating the sophistry that blankets all of these things. God forbid somebody tugs on the blanket.
- nordsieck 7y ago
  > "I encrypted the device but don't have the key" isn't a defense to being compelled to decrypt the device? Try to think about it from the court's point of view. The truth could be: A. You legitimately forgot. B. You're lying. I know which one Occam's Razor favors.
  - function_seven 7y ago
    The whole point of a justice system is that Occam and his Razor are a terrible way of determining guilt. Yeah, I'd bet that most people claiming to have forgotten a key or password are lying. But so what? How do you differentiate those who're concealing vs. those that legitimately don't know the string of characters? If they float, they're a witch, if they sink, then I guess they're not? (That's what 18 months for contempt is akin to)
harikb 7y ago
Hypothetically, he might have remembered his real password but the Government didn’t protect the bit-rot capable hard drive and it is the hard drive that is now bad. May be sector level checksums and probabilities rule them out but it is possible in the grand scheme of things
- rootusrootus 7y ago
  I wonder how it would work out if you confidently gave the wrong password. Edit: I guess this case actually answers that, to some extent. Before he said he forgot the password, he tried a couple for them.
TacticalCoder 7y ago
> "I forgot" is generally not a valid defense. Am I the only here who had to re-install Linux after x weeks or months of uptime because the LUKS password was forgotten? It happened to me more than once. How is it "generally not" (but sometimes yes?) a valid defense when it's a fact that people are losing their passwords? The internet is full of messages like: "I forgot my LUKS password but remember it had the name of my dog in it" (not advising to do that btw), "Is there a way to crack my own password?" P.S: I've got backup of all my files and configuration files, so re-installing Linux ain't a problem: theft / flood / fire / full-disk encryption password lost... I wouldn't lose anything.
- jliptzin 7y ago
  Yea, makes no sense to me. I’ve forgotten many passwords for things I thought I’d never forget, including a bitcoin wallet. I can only imagine how hard it would be not using the password for months or years because law enforcement seized your device, and then having to produce it.