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What is more dangerous for an American (or even European) citizen? The US or China spying at them? Even if China is more evil in its domestic affairs a western

What is more dangerous for an American (or even European) citizen? The US or China spying at them? Even if China is more evil in its domestic affairs a western civilian has much more to fear from the US.

frequentnapper 7y ago
>Even if China is more evil in its domestic affairs a western civilian has much more to fear from the US. Can you support this assertion?
- AsyncAwait 7y ago
  Kim Dotcom, Julian Assange, Iraq, Iran etc.?
  - Mulpze15 7y ago
    FIFA executives. Even though I found it awesome. https://www.justice.gov/usao-edny/pr/nine-fifa-officials-and-five-corporate-executives-indicted-racketeering-conspiracy-and https://www.justice.gov/usao-edny/pr/nine-fifa-officials-and...
- TwoBit 7y ago
  China can't prosecute me for anything, U.S. can.
- 9HZZRfNlpR 7y ago
  America are more likely to kidnap me over the borders compared to China.
  - pyuser583 7y ago
    Source? To quote a Chinese citizen: “Give us a baby and we’ll let you go.” https://www.hrw.org/report/2019/03/21/give-us-baby-and-well-let-you-go/trafficking-kachin-brides-myanmar-china https://www.hrw.org/report/2019/03/21/give-us-baby-and-well-...
unishark 7y ago
Millions of Chinese people visit the US. This is who China would be most concerned about monitoring anyway, and who we should be most concerned about protecting.
nucleardog 7y ago
They have more to fear from China. China does not respect the sovereignty of other nations, nor the rule of law. They are not above intimidating, blackmailing, or otherwise exerting their influence on foreign nationals on foreign soil when their views become too politically inconvenient. Those residing and holding citizenship abroad but that have family back in China (which are many) have proven especially vulnenable. Stories of China arresting foreign citizens for activities abroad and never allowing consular access, funding and manipulating groups in foreign countries (especially on university campuses) and then directing them to silence others, and more are a dime a dozen. While the US's hands are quite dirty here as well, China has shown repeatedly that given the opportunity they are more than willing to try and implement the kind of oppression and thought policing they have at home in places abroad. It is more dangerous for the entire world to have China spying on them than it is the US.
- manicdee 7y ago
  This is the same USA which performs extraordinary renditions (ie: kidnapping a citizen of a foreign nation from within that nation’s borders), political assassinations, and abandoning erstwhile allies because their new friends with oil don’t like the old friends? How is China worse than the USA? Your claim seems to rest entirely on greater reporting of China’s aggressions by the US and their allies.
  - wolco 7y ago
    His claim rests on the reported facts by the US and allies? There are independant agencies outlining so much worse.. like the harvesting of organs on political prisioners. Do you think the US is harvesting organs?
    - Lutger 7y ago
      Probably not, but the US has started more than a few wars which has led to insane amounts of suffering and dragged it's allies into it as well. This, as a European, I fear more than China's foreign policies. However I am truly afraid of the way Xi has enacted its horror policies in China.
simonh 7y ago
Well, the PLA has been caught red handed, twice, hacking Western firms and financial insitutions, including installing malware and identify theft which could be used to impersonate and hack members of the public. The USA is far from clean on this issue, but I don't think we know enough to properly characterise the relative threats. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PLA_Unit_61398 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PLA_Unit_61398
- dependenttypes 7y ago
  And the NSA has been known to monitor all kinds of communications "which could be used to impersonate and hack members of the public". (example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tailored_Access_Operations#NSA_ANT_catalog https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tailored_Access_Operations#NSA...) The ideal would be to use open-source hardware and e2e encryption, but if this is not possible I would suggest these scared of the US to use Chinese phones and these scares of China to use US phones.

frequentnapper 7y ago

>Even if China is more evil in its domestic affairs a western civilian has much more to fear from the US. Can you support this assertion?

AsyncAwait 7y ago
Kim Dotcom, Julian Assange, Iraq, Iran etc.?
- Mulpze15 7y ago
  FIFA executives. Even though I found it awesome. https://www.justice.gov/usao-edny/pr/nine-fifa-officials-and-five-corporate-executives-indicted-racketeering-conspiracy-and https://www.justice.gov/usao-edny/pr/nine-fifa-officials-and...
TwoBit 7y ago
China can't prosecute me for anything, U.S. can.
9HZZRfNlpR 7y ago
America are more likely to kidnap me over the borders compared to China.
- pyuser583 7y ago
  Source? To quote a Chinese citizen: “Give us a baby and we’ll let you go.” https://www.hrw.org/report/2019/03/21/give-us-baby-and-well-let-you-go/trafficking-kachin-brides-myanmar-china https://www.hrw.org/report/2019/03/21/give-us-baby-and-well-...

unishark 7y ago

Millions of Chinese people visit the US. This is who China would be most concerned about monitoring anyway, and who we should be most concerned about protecting.

nucleardog 7y ago

They have more to fear from China. China does not respect the sovereignty of other nations, nor the rule of law. They are not above intimidating, blackmailing, or otherwise exerting their influence on foreign nationals on foreign soil when their views become too politically inconvenient. Those residing and holding citizenship abroad but that have family back in China (which are many) have proven especially vulnenable. Stories of China arresting foreign citizens for activities abroad and never allowing consular access, funding and manipulating groups in foreign countries (especially on university campuses) and then directing them to silence others, and more are a dime a dozen. While the US's hands are quite dirty here as well, China has shown repeatedly that given the opportunity they are more than willing to try and implement the kind of oppression and thought policing they have at home in places abroad. It is more dangerous for the entire world to have China spying on them than it is the US.

manicdee 7y ago
This is the same USA which performs extraordinary renditions (ie: kidnapping a citizen of a foreign nation from within that nation’s borders), political assassinations, and abandoning erstwhile allies because their new friends with oil don’t like the old friends? How is China worse than the USA? Your claim seems to rest entirely on greater reporting of China’s aggressions by the US and their allies.
- wolco 7y ago
  His claim rests on the reported facts by the US and allies? There are independant agencies outlining so much worse.. like the harvesting of organs on political prisioners. Do you think the US is harvesting organs?
  - Lutger 7y ago
    Probably not, but the US has started more than a few wars which has led to insane amounts of suffering and dragged it's allies into it as well. This, as a European, I fear more than China's foreign policies. However I am truly afraid of the way Xi has enacted its horror policies in China.

simonh 7y ago

Well, the PLA has been caught red handed, twice, hacking Western firms and financial insitutions, including installing malware and identify theft which could be used to impersonate and hack members of the public. The USA is far from clean on this issue, but I don't think we know enough to properly characterise the relative threats. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PLA_Unit_61398 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PLA_Unit_61398

dependenttypes 7y ago
And the NSA has been known to monitor all kinds of communications "which could be used to impersonate and hack members of the public". (example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tailored_Access_Operations#NSA_ANT_catalog https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tailored_Access_Operations#NSA...) The ideal would be to use open-source hardware and e2e encryption, but if this is not possible I would suggest these scared of the US to use Chinese phones and these scares of China to use US phones.