9 ms·

Are you American? If so, that is a false statement. DODI 5240.1-R says "[DoD components] Will not participate in or request any person or entity to undertake an

Are you American? If so, that is a false statement. DODI 5240.1-R says "[DoD components] Will not participate in or request any person or entity to undertake any activities that are forbidden by E.O. 12333 or this issuance." [1] The NSA, which has the SIGINT authority from EO 12333 [2], is a component of the DoD. A non-DoD entity, such as FBI, Treasury, etc, would (a) not have a foreign intelligence mission and would therefore go through normal court procedures to obtain warrants to collect your communications or (b) would need to coordinate through the executive agency (NSA in the case of SIGINT) to request support for foreign communications, which brings us back to the referenced DOD instruction requiring FISA approval. 1: https://dodsioo.defense.gov/Portals/46/DoDM%20%205240.01.pdf?ver=2016-08-11-184834-887 https://dodsioo.defense.gov/Portals/46/DoDM%20%205240.01.pdf... 2: https://www.archives.gov/federal-register/codification/executive-order/12333.html https://www.archives.gov/federal-register/codification/execu...

eternalny1 7y ago
Snowden showed they were sharing nudes of ex-girlfriend in TAO. How well do you think the FISA warrant process is going in reality?
- kube-system 7y ago
  The scenario you mention is an illegal anecdotal failure of the system to work as intended. If we're still comparing the US and China, I'd say it's working a great deal better than whatever system is currently (not) protecting Uighurs from systematic unjust search and seizure.
  - CWuestefeld 7y ago
    That it's illegal doesn't mean that we should pretend that it's not happening. Moreover, there's much more than anecdotal evidence. The recently-released report on the Trump investigation proves this. Even if you hate Trump, there's no getting around the fact that the FBI completely abused the FISA court system, getting warrants by lying and misleading the court. This is a systemic problem.
    - kube-system 7y ago
      I never said we should pretend it's not happening. I'm saying that even bringing that up as a point of comparison with China is silly.
      - CWuestefeld 7y ago
        I don't understand how it's relevant to point out that US government actions are illegal. The fact is that it's really happening, so in point of fact, the US is not categorically different from China. The difference, if any, is solely one of degree.
        kube-system 7y ago
        It being illegal is relevant because it is at least considered wrong to do. The degree of difference in what is considered acceptable (and also what is happening) between the two is so staggeringly different it isn't even comparable.
        CWuestefeld 7y ago
        I will continue to disagree, until you can show me that someone is being punished for the illegal actions, and that further steps are being taken to prevent such transgressions in the future. Today in America it is de facto legal for law enforcement to do this stuff. The fact that a piece of paper somewhere might say otherwise has no bearing on what's actually happening.
        kube-system 7y ago
        > 325 times between 2013 and 2015, cops and employees who misused databases “were fired, suspended or resigned.” https://www.computerworld.com/article/3124641/cops-run-unauthorized-searches-on-confidential-databases-for-revenge-stalking.html https://www.computerworld.com/article/3124641/cops-run-unaut... > The act imposes some new limits on the bulk collection of telecommunication metadata on U.S. citizens by American intelligence agencies https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USA_Freedom_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USA_Freedom_Act And shortly thereafter: > The National Security Agency (NSA) has formally recommended that the White House drop the phone surveillance program that collects information about millions of US phone calls and text messages. The Wall Street Journal reports that people familiar with the matter say the logistical and legal burdens of maintaining the program outweigh any intelligence benefits it brings. https://www.engadget.com/2019/04/25/nsa-drop-massive-phone-surveillance-spying https://www.engadget.com/2019/04/25/nsa-drop-massive-phone-s... Sure, the US isn't perfect. But I'm still very certain that I trust China's approach to data privacy a little less, since they currently do all of the following to happen, without suspicion of a crime: * mass collection of blood and hair DNA samples for citizens living in minority regions * literal government occupation of people's homes to take photos and collect information * installing government cameras inside of peoples homes * using that information to track, detain, and send ~1 million minorities to re-education camps without being charged or accused of a crime... where they are subjected to forced sterilization and torture. https://www.hrw.org/news/2018/05/13/china-visiting-officials-occupy-homes-muslim-region https://www.hrw.org/news/2018/05/13/china-visiting-officials... https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/08/world/asia/china-uighur-muslim-detention-camp.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/08/world/asia/china-uighur-m... https://www.rfa.org/english/news/uyghur/abuse-10302019142433.html https://www.rfa.org/english/news/uyghur/abuse-10302019142433... The institutional attitudes to privacy are simply not comparable to the US. US authorities are not nonchalant enough about privacy that they think anything close to that that is remotely acceptable in the US.
  - jessaustin 7y ago
    I have never corresponded with a Uighur, and certainly never on topics that are sensitive for the Chinese state. Have you?
    - kube-system 7y ago
      I don't see any reason why I would be afforded any more legal protections than they give to their own citizens, do you?
      - jessaustin 7y ago
        If you're not in their jurisdiction, or neighboring jurisdictions (I've heard some rumors of events in e.g. Vietnam), they're not going to do anything to you. USA cannot make the same claim.
        kube-system 7y ago
        Private information can absolutely be used to coerce/blackmail/extort/compromise/propagandize from abroad. It happens many thousands of times every day.
        jessaustin 7y ago
        I wouldn't be surprised if the Chinese state did this and much worse. Governments are evil, film at eleven. However, if this intercontinental extortion were so common, I suspect we would have heard of a single case by now.
        kube-system 7y ago
        Extortion specifically? How about the Bezos extortion case? https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jan/21/revealed-the-saudi-heir-and-the-alleged-plot-to-undermine-jeff-bezos https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jan/21/revealed-the-s...
        7y ago
owenmarshall 7y ago
Funny you mention that! https://www.reuters.com/article/us-dea-sod/exclusive-u-s-directs-agents-to-cover-up-program-used-to-investigate-americans-idUSBRE97409R20130805 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-dea-sod/exclusive-u-s-dir...

eternalny1 7y ago

Snowden showed they were sharing nudes of ex-girlfriend in TAO. How well do you think the FISA warrant process is going in reality?

kube-system 7y ago
The scenario you mention is an illegal anecdotal failure of the system to work as intended. If we're still comparing the US and China, I'd say it's working a great deal better than whatever system is currently (not) protecting Uighurs from systematic unjust search and seizure.
- CWuestefeld 7y ago
  That it's illegal doesn't mean that we should pretend that it's not happening. Moreover, there's much more than anecdotal evidence. The recently-released report on the Trump investigation proves this. Even if you hate Trump, there's no getting around the fact that the FBI completely abused the FISA court system, getting warrants by lying and misleading the court. This is a systemic problem.
  - kube-system 7y ago
    I never said we should pretend it's not happening. I'm saying that even bringing that up as a point of comparison with China is silly.
    - CWuestefeld 7y ago
      I don't understand how it's relevant to point out that US government actions are illegal. The fact is that it's really happening, so in point of fact, the US is not categorically different from China. The difference, if any, is solely one of degree.
      - kube-system 7y ago
        It being illegal is relevant because it is at least considered wrong to do. The degree of difference in what is considered acceptable (and also what is happening) between the two is so staggeringly different it isn't even comparable.
        CWuestefeld 7y ago
        I will continue to disagree, until you can show me that someone is being punished for the illegal actions, and that further steps are being taken to prevent such transgressions in the future. Today in America it is de facto legal for law enforcement to do this stuff. The fact that a piece of paper somewhere might say otherwise has no bearing on what's actually happening.
        kube-system 7y ago
        > 325 times between 2013 and 2015, cops and employees who misused databases “were fired, suspended or resigned.” https://www.computerworld.com/article/3124641/cops-run-unauthorized-searches-on-confidential-databases-for-revenge-stalking.html https://www.computerworld.com/article/3124641/cops-run-unaut... > The act imposes some new limits on the bulk collection of telecommunication metadata on U.S. citizens by American intelligence agencies https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USA_Freedom_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USA_Freedom_Act And shortly thereafter: > The National Security Agency (NSA) has formally recommended that the White House drop the phone surveillance program that collects information about millions of US phone calls and text messages. The Wall Street Journal reports that people familiar with the matter say the logistical and legal burdens of maintaining the program outweigh any intelligence benefits it brings. https://www.engadget.com/2019/04/25/nsa-drop-massive-phone-surveillance-spying https://www.engadget.com/2019/04/25/nsa-drop-massive-phone-s... Sure, the US isn't perfect. But I'm still very certain that I trust China's approach to data privacy a little less, since they currently do all of the following to happen, without suspicion of a crime: * mass collection of blood and hair DNA samples for citizens living in minority regions * literal government occupation of people's homes to take photos and collect information * installing government cameras inside of peoples homes * using that information to track, detain, and send ~1 million minorities to re-education camps without being charged or accused of a crime... where they are subjected to forced sterilization and torture. https://www.hrw.org/news/2018/05/13/china-visiting-officials-occupy-homes-muslim-region https://www.hrw.org/news/2018/05/13/china-visiting-officials... https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/08/world/asia/china-uighur-muslim-detention-camp.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/08/world/asia/china-uighur-m... https://www.rfa.org/english/news/uyghur/abuse-10302019142433.html https://www.rfa.org/english/news/uyghur/abuse-10302019142433... The institutional attitudes to privacy are simply not comparable to the US. US authorities are not nonchalant enough about privacy that they think anything close to that that is remotely acceptable in the US.
- jessaustin 7y ago
  I have never corresponded with a Uighur, and certainly never on topics that are sensitive for the Chinese state. Have you?
  - kube-system 7y ago
    I don't see any reason why I would be afforded any more legal protections than they give to their own citizens, do you?
    - jessaustin 7y ago
      If you're not in their jurisdiction, or neighboring jurisdictions (I've heard some rumors of events in e.g. Vietnam), they're not going to do anything to you. USA cannot make the same claim.
      - kube-system 7y ago
        Private information can absolutely be used to coerce/blackmail/extort/compromise/propagandize from abroad. It happens many thousands of times every day.
        jessaustin 7y ago
        I wouldn't be surprised if the Chinese state did this and much worse. Governments are evil, film at eleven. However, if this intercontinental extortion were so common, I suspect we would have heard of a single case by now.
        kube-system 7y ago
        Extortion specifically? How about the Bezos extortion case? https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jan/21/revealed-the-saudi-heir-and-the-alleged-plot-to-undermine-jeff-bezos https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jan/21/revealed-the-s...
        7y ago

owenmarshall 7y ago

Funny you mention that! https://www.reuters.com/article/us-dea-sod/exclusive-u-s-directs-agents-to-cover-up-program-used-to-investigate-americans-idUSBRE97409R20130805 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-dea-sod/exclusive-u-s-dir...