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Everything is a market. Any time people get together, for any purpose, trading occurs. The truth of that assertion hinges on us not remembering the billion oth

by mahmud 16y ago

Everything is a market. Any time people get together, for any purpose, trading occurs. The truth of that assertion hinges on us not remembering the billion other counter-examples. It might comfort free-market capitalists like ourselves to paint humanity with that thick brush, but truth tells differently: people don't always gather with the intention to buy/sell, in fact, sometimes, commercial intent is detrimental to a healthy assembly and is frowned upon.

msh 16y ago
a market dont require the intention of buying and selling, just the exchange of something in return for something else.
- mahmud 16y ago
  a market dont require the intention of buying and selling, just the exchange of something in return for something else. Exchange of what? Goods and services for other goods and services of comparable value, or cash, or notes of debt? Is that not the definition of a market? Here is a human gathering for you: a funeral. What goods & services are changing hands? And please don't say "the family's savings going to the funeral home".
  - winxordie 16y ago
    Money is exchanged for the rite of ceremonial burial. Most people don't just stick their mum into the ground - it's just not "proper". Social factors require a ritual market in most societies.
    - mahmud 16y ago
      I pity your society. In mine, the community buries its dead for free. You're not even supposed to cook at your own house for weeks, neighbors bring in food.
  - Semiapies 16y ago
    Do you really think you're saying anything useful by baldly ignoring the context of the original statement in order to make a fuss over "free market capitalists"? The context is not funerals or family reunions or random events, it's communities of people interacting over time.
  - pyre 16y ago
    At a funeral, people exchange stories, comfort, and grief.
    - mahmud 16y ago
      In a market, participants are indifferent to where they get their products and services from, as long as the price is right. In a funeral, I bloody hell care who comes to grief with me, more importantly, I care about who didn't.
wladimir 16y ago
Just that trading occurs anywhere people get together doesn't mean everything is a market. I'd have liked to +10 you. It's so hip these days to see everything in the context of economics, as a market. In my opinion that's actually hurting our understanding of human behaviour, by trivializing every interaction.
- cynicalkane 16y ago
  It's a generalization, not a trivialization. Saying all human interactions are markets is like saying everything in computer programming is an object (or everything is a function, or everything is data, or whatever). It's a particular way of looking things that yields insights depending on where, how, and how well it is applied.
- DanielBMarkham 16y ago
  It trivializes it only if you draw some grand conclusions from economic theory. I think many times we get the simple fact that humans are traders mixed up with all this political and economic theory nonsense. To acknowledge that people are always trading is an important observation in itself, and doesn't imply any other conclusions. Draw your own. If anything, it looks like the study of economics is doing exactly what you say: it's showing that these trades many times are irrational, are not for money, and are driven by as many complex forces as exist in the human psyche. So you can start with "it's all a market" and end up with the complexities of human existence, or you can start with "It's not all economics" and end up with the complexities of human existence. Same difference. Either way, the problem is taking huge generalizations and beating them with a rhetorical hammer until they fit some personal worldview, not the observation of the phenomenon itself.
anamax 16y ago
>> Everything is a market. Any time people get together, for any purpose, trading occurs. > The truth of that assertion hinges on us not remembering the billion other counter-examples. It would have been nice if you'd have provided some of those counter-examples. > people don't always gather with the intention to buy/sell There's your problem - you think that trading only involves money. It doesn't. It's the exchange of value. Yes, you hang around with your friends because you get more out of doing that than it costs you to do so. Yes, someone will try to impose costs on you to affect your choices. You'll try to avoid them.
- chc 16y ago
  Sure, everything's a trade of value if you define the term "trade of value" loosely enough. As far as I can tell, that's more of a semantic game than an actual revelation.
  - anamax 16y ago
    > Sure, everything's a trade of value if you define the term "trade of value" loosely enough. Your initial argument rested on the (reasonable) assumption that people value lots of things in addition to money. Do you really want to argue that people don't trade non-monetary value? Or, does your "loosely" argument rest on how you think that I've twisted "of"? You say "semantic" like it's meaningless....
    - chc 16y ago
      At a certain point in that line of reasoning, the "value" becomes nothing but "satisfaction in knowing you did something nice for someone else." It's something people value, but to put it in terms of a market transaction misses the point by a wide margin.

by mahmud 16y ago

msh 16y ago

a market dont require the intention of buying and selling, just the exchange of something in return for something else.

mahmud 16y ago
a market dont require the intention of buying and selling, just the exchange of something in return for something else. Exchange of what? Goods and services for other goods and services of comparable value, or cash, or notes of debt? Is that not the definition of a market? Here is a human gathering for you: a funeral. What goods & services are changing hands? And please don't say "the family's savings going to the funeral home".
- winxordie 16y ago
  Money is exchanged for the rite of ceremonial burial. Most people don't just stick their mum into the ground - it's just not "proper". Social factors require a ritual market in most societies.
  - mahmud 16y ago
    I pity your society. In mine, the community buries its dead for free. You're not even supposed to cook at your own house for weeks, neighbors bring in food.
- Semiapies 16y ago
  Do you really think you're saying anything useful by baldly ignoring the context of the original statement in order to make a fuss over "free market capitalists"? The context is not funerals or family reunions or random events, it's communities of people interacting over time.
- pyre 16y ago
  At a funeral, people exchange stories, comfort, and grief.
  - mahmud 16y ago
    In a market, participants are indifferent to where they get their products and services from, as long as the price is right. In a funeral, I bloody hell care who comes to grief with me, more importantly, I care about who didn't.

wladimir 16y ago

Just that trading occurs anywhere people get together doesn't mean everything is a market. I'd have liked to +10 you. It's so hip these days to see everything in the context of economics, as a market. In my opinion that's actually hurting our understanding of human behaviour, by trivializing every interaction.

cynicalkane 16y ago
It's a generalization, not a trivialization. Saying all human interactions are markets is like saying everything in computer programming is an object (or everything is a function, or everything is data, or whatever). It's a particular way of looking things that yields insights depending on where, how, and how well it is applied.
DanielBMarkham 16y ago
It trivializes it only if you draw some grand conclusions from economic theory. I think many times we get the simple fact that humans are traders mixed up with all this political and economic theory nonsense. To acknowledge that people are always trading is an important observation in itself, and doesn't imply any other conclusions. Draw your own. If anything, it looks like the study of economics is doing exactly what you say: it's showing that these trades many times are irrational, are not for money, and are driven by as many complex forces as exist in the human psyche. So you can start with "it's all a market" and end up with the complexities of human existence, or you can start with "It's not all economics" and end up with the complexities of human existence. Same difference. Either way, the problem is taking huge generalizations and beating them with a rhetorical hammer until they fit some personal worldview, not the observation of the phenomenon itself.

anamax 16y ago

>> Everything is a market. Any time people get together, for any purpose, trading occurs. > The truth of that assertion hinges on us not remembering the billion other counter-examples. It would have been nice if you'd have provided some of those counter-examples. > people don't always gather with the intention to buy/sell There's your problem - you think that trading only involves money. It doesn't. It's the exchange of value. Yes, you hang around with your friends because you get more out of doing that than it costs you to do so. Yes, someone will try to impose costs on you to affect your choices. You'll try to avoid them.

chc 16y ago
Sure, everything's a trade of value if you define the term "trade of value" loosely enough. As far as I can tell, that's more of a semantic game than an actual revelation.
- anamax 16y ago
  > Sure, everything's a trade of value if you define the term "trade of value" loosely enough. Your initial argument rested on the (reasonable) assumption that people value lots of things in addition to money. Do you really want to argue that people don't trade non-monetary value? Or, does your "loosely" argument rest on how you think that I've twisted "of"? You say "semantic" like it's meaningless....
  - chc 16y ago
    At a certain point in that line of reasoning, the "value" becomes nothing but "satisfaction in knowing you did something nice for someone else." It's something people value, but to put it in terms of a market transaction misses the point by a wide margin.