28 ms·

> low to medium risk areas and average 10 - 15% per year. Where can I get this return reliably at "low risk"?

by jbb123 7y ago

jonny383 7y ago
Firstly, it was "low to medium" risk, not "low" risk. Secondly, pretty much any reputable ETF (or combination of ETF's) can quite easily achieve this over 30 years.
- akavi 7y ago
  There is no reputable ETF that will give you 15% return. Even 10% real return is incredibly unlikely.
  - OJFord 7y ago
    I don't think 'unreputable' is fair - they're just a different (not 'low - medium'!) risk profile.
    - nuclearnice1 7y ago
      What tickers?
      - atombender 7y ago
        Perhaps they're referring to leveraged ETFs like UPRO (Direxion Daily 3X Bull & Bear S&P) and TQQQ (ProShares UltraPro QQQ). Be advised that they are not designed to be held over more than a day, although with the current bull market, they have not actually been hit by the decay factor inherent to all leveraged ETFs. Other higher-risk ETFs would be things like solar/wind sector ETFs (e.g. TAN, FAN, PBW, IQCLN, QCLN, etc.) or bleeding-edge biotech (e.g. SBIO).
    - Kirby64 7y ago
      No, they're just non-existent. Anyone with a brokerage account had a ~20%+ return last year... it's over 30 years that matters. I'm sure there's SOME ETF that managed to do 15% returns over a 30 yr period, but that's just selection bias after the fact. It doesn't mean that ETF would do well this year, or next.
- jbb123 7y ago
  Most ETFs have returned about 7-8 % average long term (before allowing for inflation). Not a bad return, but very different over 20 years from 10-15%
  - robohoe 7y ago
    7-8% is still nothing to scoff at. Better than a measly 1% in a savings account :D
    - Ididntdothis 7y ago
      There is a slight difference in outcome between 7 and 15 percent return though :).
      - deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
  - Solvitieg 7y ago
    It has to be said that this 7-8% average is inflated due to being at the end (?) of a ten year bull market. Vangaurd is predicting low growth of 3-4% over the next decade.
  - Kirby64 7y ago
    Average rate of return is 7% accounting for inflation, actually. That assumes you're doing dividend reinvestment and such. Vanguard's predictions of 3-4% over the next decade mean that if you do a straight dollar calculation you'd be closer to ~7%, because that 3-4% number includes inflation, once again.
poulsbohemian 7y ago
There are places in the US where this is the rate of appreciation on real estate. While there are periodic setbacks (see: 2008-2012), real estate is remarkably stable across the country, especially in major cities. The small, somewhat rural area I live in had an average appreciation of 13% last year, which is not sustainable for this area but still indicative of the overall trend.
- ticmasta 7y ago
  and you know lots of real estate deals that are low risk, pay 10-15% and available for participation @ $100 / week? >> an average appreciation of 13% last year, which is not sustainable for this area but still indicative of the overall trend. not sustainable but indicative of the overall trend? What does that even mean?
  - poulsbohemian 7y ago
    It means we aren't going to see 13% every year in my localized market, but we will see a continued upward march - where the data from the past 30 years bears that out. Other markets like Seattle, given the geography and current restrictions it isn't much of a jump to think you could average a 10% appreciation for the next decade. I don't recall anyone saying anything about participation @ $100 / week, so don't be flippant. The comment was made about low risk at 10-15%. If you had $100/week to spend, I'd put it in a drip and buy pharma stocks because there are many paying a sizable dividend, but I'm not your broker so get your own advice.
    - swiley 7y ago
      Ah real estate: the rent keeps going up and there’s no easy way for individuals to benefit from it.
- voldacar 7y ago
  10-15% after property tax?
  - 7y ago
newnewpdro 7y ago
It doesn't seem difficult to avg +1% per month doing relatively basic trading in my experience. The challenge I have is remembering to actually care about it and do the trades, life gets too busy and before I realize it a month has gone by. But whenever I'm on top of it, 1% gains have been very easy over the past decade, I'm rarely in the market for more than a few hours. But I risk having a pile of cash to trade with I suppose, the dollar could crash. If you do +1% per month you're already +12%/yr, I consider 12%/yr the minimum acceptable yield for any kind of investment given how easy it seems to be to DIY.
- MichaelDickens 7y ago
  1. The S&P 500 has returned about 14% per year over the past decade, so a return of 12% isn't particularly notable. 2. Market returns vary greatly from decade to decade, so we shouldn't necessarily expect this 14% rate of return to continue. (Most obviously, there were no recessions in the past decade, which is unusual.)
TimTheTinker 7y ago
I suggest buying low-fee domestic index-tracking ETFs like "Vanguard S&P 500 ETF" (VOO), using a low-fee brokerage app like M1 Finance. ... or not. Your situation may call for something else. Any specific suggestions people give you will likely sound unnecessarily specific and perhaps arbitrary, unless you have spent a lot of time learning about the modern investing landscape -- you really need to do that for yourself.
- TeMPOraL 7y ago
  > you really need to do that for yourself And how to do that? Especially for those of us in Europe? That's one thing I can't get my head around. The ecosystem seems filled with scammers and financial advise salesmen, and my "scam alert" is running on constant overdrive whenever trying to look for any current and actionable educational material.
  - TimTheTinker 7y ago
    Here are a few starting points. - https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Getting_started_for_non-US_investors https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Getting_started_for_non-US_i... - (book) The Simple Path to Wealth by J. L. Collins - (Podcast) ChooseFI
  - charwalker 7y ago
    I have an account with Vanguard directly and research their funds when investing. Currently my US employer retirement fund partner has very low cost access to Vanguard funds I follow already so I am linked into that. It really depends on your goals and starting point. Avoiding management fees is one of my priorities as well as direct visibility of my accounts and numbers (all offered via Vanguard directly). There are a lot of great, free information sources. Some are directed at people who are paycheck t paycheck and need to start setting like $100/month aside while digging out of debt. Others focus on middle class style employer retirement plan+personal savings like for a down payment on a house. Others focus on those willing to toss thousands on what becomes a bet on the market and YOLO it (not recommended). I started by just looking at Vanguard funds and using open/free tools to understand terminology and get a grasp of the history or background like lessons learned.

> low to medium risk areas and average 10 - 15% per year. Where can I get this return reliably at "low risk"?

by jbb123 7y ago

> low to medium risk areas and average 10 - 15% per year. Where can I get this return reliably at "low risk"?

Firstly, it was "low to medium" risk, not "low" risk. Secondly, pretty much any reputable ETF (or combination of ETF's) can quite easily achieve this over 30 years.

akavi 7y ago
There is no reputable ETF that will give you 15% return. Even 10% real return is incredibly unlikely.
- OJFord 7y ago
  I don't think 'unreputable' is fair - they're just a different (not 'low - medium'!) risk profile.
  - nuclearnice1 7y ago
    What tickers?
    - atombender 7y ago
      Perhaps they're referring to leveraged ETFs like UPRO (Direxion Daily 3X Bull & Bear S&P) and TQQQ (ProShares UltraPro QQQ). Be advised that they are not designed to be held over more than a day, although with the current bull market, they have not actually been hit by the decay factor inherent to all leveraged ETFs. Other higher-risk ETFs would be things like solar/wind sector ETFs (e.g. TAN, FAN, PBW, IQCLN, QCLN, etc.) or bleeding-edge biotech (e.g. SBIO).
  - Kirby64 7y ago
    No, they're just non-existent. Anyone with a brokerage account had a ~20%+ return last year... it's over 30 years that matters. I'm sure there's SOME ETF that managed to do 15% returns over a 30 yr period, but that's just selection bias after the fact. It doesn't mean that ETF would do well this year, or next.
jbb123 7y ago
Most ETFs have returned about 7-8 % average long term (before allowing for inflation). Not a bad return, but very different over 20 years from 10-15%
- robohoe 7y ago
  7-8% is still nothing to scoff at. Better than a measly 1% in a savings account :D
  - Ididntdothis 7y ago
    There is a slight difference in outcome between 7 and 15 percent return though :).
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
- Solvitieg 7y ago
  It has to be said that this 7-8% average is inflated due to being at the end (?) of a ten year bull market. Vangaurd is predicting low growth of 3-4% over the next decade.
- Kirby64 7y ago
  Average rate of return is 7% accounting for inflation, actually. That assumes you're doing dividend reinvestment and such. Vanguard's predictions of 3-4% over the next decade mean that if you do a straight dollar calculation you'd be closer to ~7%, because that 3-4% number includes inflation, once again.

poulsbohemian 7y ago

There are places in the US where this is the rate of appreciation on real estate. While there are periodic setbacks (see: 2008-2012), real estate is remarkably stable across the country, especially in major cities. The small, somewhat rural area I live in had an average appreciation of 13% last year, which is not sustainable for this area but still indicative of the overall trend.

ticmasta 7y ago
and you know lots of real estate deals that are low risk, pay 10-15% and available for participation @ $100 / week? >> an average appreciation of 13% last year, which is not sustainable for this area but still indicative of the overall trend. not sustainable but indicative of the overall trend? What does that even mean?
- poulsbohemian 7y ago
  It means we aren't going to see 13% every year in my localized market, but we will see a continued upward march - where the data from the past 30 years bears that out. Other markets like Seattle, given the geography and current restrictions it isn't much of a jump to think you could average a 10% appreciation for the next decade. I don't recall anyone saying anything about participation @ $100 / week, so don't be flippant. The comment was made about low risk at 10-15%. If you had $100/week to spend, I'd put it in a drip and buy pharma stocks because there are many paying a sizable dividend, but I'm not your broker so get your own advice.
  - swiley 7y ago
    Ah real estate: the rent keeps going up and there’s no easy way for individuals to benefit from it.
voldacar 7y ago
10-15% after property tax?
- 7y ago

newnewpdro 7y ago

It doesn't seem difficult to avg +1% per month doing relatively basic trading in my experience. The challenge I have is remembering to actually care about it and do the trades, life gets too busy and before I realize it a month has gone by. But whenever I'm on top of it, 1% gains have been very easy over the past decade, I'm rarely in the market for more than a few hours. But I risk having a pile of cash to trade with I suppose, the dollar could crash. If you do +1% per month you're already +12%/yr, I consider 12%/yr the minimum acceptable yield for any kind of investment given how easy it seems to be to DIY.

MichaelDickens 7y ago
1. The S&P 500 has returned about 14% per year over the past decade, so a return of 12% isn't particularly notable. 2. Market returns vary greatly from decade to decade, so we shouldn't necessarily expect this 14% rate of return to continue. (Most obviously, there were no recessions in the past decade, which is unusual.)

TimTheTinker 7y ago

I suggest buying low-fee domestic index-tracking ETFs like "Vanguard S&P 500 ETF" (VOO), using a low-fee brokerage app like M1 Finance. ... or not. Your situation may call for something else. Any specific suggestions people give you will likely sound unnecessarily specific and perhaps arbitrary, unless you have spent a lot of time learning about the modern investing landscape -- you really need to do that for yourself.

TeMPOraL 7y ago
> you really need to do that for yourself And how to do that? Especially for those of us in Europe? That's one thing I can't get my head around. The ecosystem seems filled with scammers and financial advise salesmen, and my "scam alert" is running on constant overdrive whenever trying to look for any current and actionable educational material.
- TimTheTinker 7y ago
  Here are a few starting points. - https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Getting_started_for_non-US_investors https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Getting_started_for_non-US_i... - (book) The Simple Path to Wealth by J. L. Collins - (Podcast) ChooseFI
- charwalker 7y ago
  I have an account with Vanguard directly and research their funds when investing. Currently my US employer retirement fund partner has very low cost access to Vanguard funds I follow already so I am linked into that. It really depends on your goals and starting point. Avoiding management fees is one of my priorities as well as direct visibility of my accounts and numbers (all offered via Vanguard directly). There are a lot of great, free information sources. Some are directed at people who are paycheck t paycheck and need to start setting like $100/month aside while digging out of debt. Others focus on middle class style employer retirement plan+personal savings like for a down payment on a house. Others focus on those willing to toss thousands on what becomes a bet on the market and YOLO it (not recommended). I started by just looking at Vanguard funds and using open/free tools to understand terminology and get a grasp of the history or background like lessons learned.