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Tesla says autopilot works but that driver should be ready to intervene. This is terrifying - like having a kid riding shotgun that might just reach out and tur

Tesla says autopilot works but that driver should be ready to intervene. This is terrifying - like having a kid riding shotgun that might just reach out and turn the wheel while you are on the highway. Anyone who has driven with autopilot, how quickly might it react to a perceived obstacle? Would it take a hard turn into a median faster than a person could reasonably react if it thought there was something in the road or that the road took a hard left? Edit Ready to intervene can mean a lot of things - ready to take over in traffic or inclement weather vs firm grip on the wheel to resist rogue hard turns Actual quote from the article >Tesla says Autopilot is intended to be used for driver assistance and that drivers must be ready to intervene at all times.

smileysteve 7y ago
From my experience, not a hard turn. The worst was it was raining and inconstant lane markings around a turn. I wondered if it was going to make the turn or if it was going to make it too late towards the sidewall. It also takes very little interaction for it to pop out of self driving
- aaron_m04 7y ago
  > It also takes very little interaction for it to pop out of self driving That itself could be dangerous if it isn't very obvious to the driver that autopilot is no longer engaged.
  - jaxn 7y ago
    Awareness of who is in control is a skill that you develop. There are audio, visual, and tactile queues.
  - revscat 7y ago
    When it disengages itself it issues a series of loud tones and the display flashes red. A message also appears saying “TAKE OVER IMMEDIATELY”. In cases where the driver takes over, there is audial, visual, and tactile feedback letting you know it has been successfully disengaged.
ip26 7y ago
I can't help but think "ready to intervene" would require an even higher level of alertness than just driving the car yourself, as you have to always be prepared for it to do something completely unexpected on a dime- and to notice without the feedback you normally get through the wheel, pedals, etc... Even worse, if you are taking an action the autopilot should have taken but didn't, you are axiomatically already late no mater how fast you react.
- perl4ever 7y ago
  "you have to always be prepared for it to do something completely unexpected on a dime" This is inherently absurd, even if you remove the last three words. You could write an essay, or a book, on why this is an example of a class of impossible problems. Or, inverting it, it's practically the generic framework of all catastrophes.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - pferde 7y ago
    You are being downvoted because your reply is basically an unnecessarily long "nuh-uh!" - a dismissal without any counterargument. Wrapping that in a string of fancy words does not change the fact that you are not providing any argument at all.
    - mistahenry 7y ago
      As far as I can tell, the previous commenter was in agreement with the sentence he quoted, going so far as to say that the “on a dime” stipulation isn’t even necessary to consider the idea that we “must always be prepared for it to do something unexpected” an absurd reality
      - pferde 7y ago
        Hm, after reading and re-reading the post half a dozen times, I realized it can indeed be interpreted that way. Now I'm confused. :)
jaxn 7y ago
I have autoplilot on the VAST majority of the time. It does not make any sudden movements. If anything, it brakes a little heavier than I would prefer at times, but there are rarely any steering problems. It has improved a lot in the 9 months I have had it.
- tyrust 7y ago
  >It has improved a lot in the 9 months I have had it. A system like this should not have noticable changes in behavior over such a short period of time. In other words, I don't think they should launch it (let alone call it "autopilot") until it's done and stable.
  - zaroth 7y ago
    A system like this which isn't constantly improving is not a system that will ever ship, or ever reach truly reliable widespread use.
    - tyrust 7y ago
      I agree that it should be improving. I don't think that said improvements should be so dramatic that they are easily perceived by humans, for that implies that the shortcomings are perceivable.
  - jaxn 7y ago
    I think you are under-appreciating the amount of perception that goes into driving. We are accustomed to making constant micro adjustments constantly while driving. Under autopilot, there are times when the "do I need to make an adjustment" instinct kicks in and you decide that you don't, but it was borderline. Things like being centered in the lane while passing a semi.
    - tyrust 7y ago
      Perhaps you're right, I've not used any driver assist before so I'm not speaking from experience. Second-guessing the system while driving just does not sound like something I'd want to deal with (as someone pointed out above [0]). [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22305695 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22305695
ericHosick 7y ago
I use autopilot daily. It drives me, on a twisty road, from my house to work with intervention when I get into town. > how quickly might it react to a perceived obstacle? I've had it head towards a curbed median in the middle of the road and within 10 feet swerve to the right to miss it (in a spot that I've driven by hundreds of times, but this time it kinda decided to head towards the curbed median). Auto pilot can react surprisingly quickly in a good way. So far, for me, it has never swerved quickly towards anything. There are situations, like on blind curves in the mountains, where it doesn't know what to do. At this time, it will start beeping, showing red on the screen and try its best to keep driving: even if that means quickly heading off the road. But, it doesn't act aggressive in any way. This is what I've experienced so far. I've had auto pilot take me, hands free, between freeway interchanges, merging, changing lanes, etc. and I'm totally amazed. At other times, it does seem to do dumb things and I wonder what it had seen to consider taking the action it took. Even with all that, there is still a huge advantage to auto pilot. Driving with it on seems to remove >a lot< of micro adjustments that I would normally be taking. I do drive with my hand on the wheel (enough pressure so I don't get the warning messages). On long drives, I really am a lot less tired: even keeping my hand on the wheel all the time. I also have more time to scan the road for anything going on. Looking down to see my speed, for example, (basically any action that takes my focus off the road for a second or two) is less stressful. It is utterly amazing technology and I still can't believe it is happening while I'm alive.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- harrisonjackson 7y ago
  Thanks! I haven't read many firsthand accounts.
  - Erlich_Bachman 7y ago
    There are several youtube accounts (like "tesla driver") for solely this purpose - to show off how the autopilot behaves, in different situations, with hands or no hands, on long or short drives, in city, on highway, between the different autopilot update verions, in different weather etc. etc. If you are really interested you can already find a lot of firsthand information, with video no less so you can see exactly for yourself what the situation was and how AP handled it.
revscat 7y ago
> Anyone who has driven with autopilot, how quickly might it react to a perceived obstacle? Faster than me, sometimes. There was one time when I was driving through southern Illinois and some idiot decided to cross the highway. I was passing a semi, who was in the right lane, and doing around 10mph faster than him. The car starts flipping out, beeping and flashing red. I see a car that apparently appeared out of no where, perpendicular to me and pulling across the highway. She had made it — barely — in front of the semi, but didn’t see me. The car saw her before I did. I think it was because of the radar. But whatever, it braked hard and I barely missed her. Saved my ass.
bmat 7y ago
> Anyone who has driven with autopilot, how quickly might it react to a perceived obstacle? Would it take a hard turn into a median faster than a person could reasonably react if it thought there was something in the road or that the road took a hard left? The only thing my car has ever abruptly/unexpectedly done was brake, usually in response to an overpass it mistook as a stopped car. It's happened maybe 10-20 times in 10,000 miles. Not enough to cause a rear end collision or even an angry honk. I've always had time to take over. It's never taken a hard turn. The only times it catastrophically failed were when I knowingly put it in confusing situations: winding roads, poorly marked lanes, city driving, etc. In those cases I always have a death grip on the wheel, and the software seems to literally loosen its hold when it's feeling uncertain.
holstvoogd 7y ago
Exactly like autopilot on a plane! :o
- eloisant 7y ago
  There is a big difference between a plane (or a boat, where autopilot is also common) and a car. A plane or a boat is roaming in a vast, mostly empty space, in a straight line. Other planes/boats are both pretty far away and also following a mostly straight line. On the other hand a car operates in a very packed space, full of obstacles all moving in sometimes unpredictible way. That makes a huge difference when it comes to autopilot.
mseidl 7y ago
I'm reminded of the Apple debacle in the past, when holding the phone a certain way affected the antenna negatively. But in almost every ad it's being held that way. With Tesla ads they always show the hands off the wheel.
bjarneh 7y ago
> how quickly might it react to a perceived obstacle? Very quickly, you have a split second to avoid whatever it decides to steer towards. The problem becomes even worse after you factor in that autopilot only works in easy to drive conditions (i.e. highways with high speeds). To make things even worse, you get less attentive when you are passive for a long period. I.e. if the autopilot fails in your first 20 seconds of driving you may very well be able to react, but if it has been driving perfectly for 20 minutes, you're probably already lulled into a passive state, and way to slow to react.
radium3d 7y ago
I have a model 3 with autopilot and it takes very little pressure in the opposite direction on the wheel to disengage autopilot before it gets very far.

smileysteve 7y ago

From my experience, not a hard turn. The worst was it was raining and inconstant lane markings around a turn. I wondered if it was going to make the turn or if it was going to make it too late towards the sidewall. It also takes very little interaction for it to pop out of self driving

aaron_m04 7y ago
> It also takes very little interaction for it to pop out of self driving That itself could be dangerous if it isn't very obvious to the driver that autopilot is no longer engaged.
- jaxn 7y ago
  Awareness of who is in control is a skill that you develop. There are audio, visual, and tactile queues.
- revscat 7y ago
  When it disengages itself it issues a series of loud tones and the display flashes red. A message also appears saying “TAKE OVER IMMEDIATELY”. In cases where the driver takes over, there is audial, visual, and tactile feedback letting you know it has been successfully disengaged.

ip26 7y ago

I can't help but think "ready to intervene" would require an even higher level of alertness than just driving the car yourself, as you have to always be prepared for it to do something completely unexpected on a dime- and to notice without the feedback you normally get through the wheel, pedals, etc... Even worse, if you are taking an action the autopilot should have taken but didn't, you are axiomatically already late no mater how fast you react.

perl4ever 7y ago
"you have to always be prepared for it to do something completely unexpected on a dime" This is inherently absurd, even if you remove the last three words. You could write an essay, or a book, on why this is an example of a class of impossible problems. Or, inverting it, it's practically the generic framework of all catastrophes.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- pferde 7y ago
  You are being downvoted because your reply is basically an unnecessarily long "nuh-uh!" - a dismissal without any counterargument. Wrapping that in a string of fancy words does not change the fact that you are not providing any argument at all.
  - mistahenry 7y ago
    As far as I can tell, the previous commenter was in agreement with the sentence he quoted, going so far as to say that the “on a dime” stipulation isn’t even necessary to consider the idea that we “must always be prepared for it to do something unexpected” an absurd reality
    - pferde 7y ago
      Hm, after reading and re-reading the post half a dozen times, I realized it can indeed be interpreted that way. Now I'm confused. :)

jaxn 7y ago

I have autoplilot on the VAST majority of the time. It does not make any sudden movements. If anything, it brakes a little heavier than I would prefer at times, but there are rarely any steering problems. It has improved a lot in the 9 months I have had it.

tyrust 7y ago
>It has improved a lot in the 9 months I have had it. A system like this should not have noticable changes in behavior over such a short period of time. In other words, I don't think they should launch it (let alone call it "autopilot") until it's done and stable.
- zaroth 7y ago
  A system like this which isn't constantly improving is not a system that will ever ship, or ever reach truly reliable widespread use.
  - tyrust 7y ago
    I agree that it should be improving. I don't think that said improvements should be so dramatic that they are easily perceived by humans, for that implies that the shortcomings are perceivable.
- jaxn 7y ago
  I think you are under-appreciating the amount of perception that goes into driving. We are accustomed to making constant micro adjustments constantly while driving. Under autopilot, there are times when the "do I need to make an adjustment" instinct kicks in and you decide that you don't, but it was borderline. Things like being centered in the lane while passing a semi.
  - tyrust 7y ago
    Perhaps you're right, I've not used any driver assist before so I'm not speaking from experience. Second-guessing the system while driving just does not sound like something I'd want to deal with (as someone pointed out above [0]). [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22305695 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22305695

ericHosick 7y ago

I use autopilot daily. It drives me, on a twisty road, from my house to work with intervention when I get into town. > how quickly might it react to a perceived obstacle? I've had it head towards a curbed median in the middle of the road and within 10 feet swerve to the right to miss it (in a spot that I've driven by hundreds of times, but this time it kinda decided to head towards the curbed median). Auto pilot can react surprisingly quickly in a good way. So far, for me, it has never swerved quickly towards anything. There are situations, like on blind curves in the mountains, where it doesn't know what to do. At this time, it will start beeping, showing red on the screen and try its best to keep driving: even if that means quickly heading off the road. But, it doesn't act aggressive in any way. This is what I've experienced so far. I've had auto pilot take me, hands free, between freeway interchanges, merging, changing lanes, etc. and I'm totally amazed. At other times, it does seem to do dumb things and I wonder what it had seen to consider taking the action it took. Even with all that, there is still a huge advantage to auto pilot. Driving with it on seems to remove >a lot< of micro adjustments that I would normally be taking. I do drive with my hand on the wheel (enough pressure so I don't get the warning messages). On long drives, I really am a lot less tired: even keeping my hand on the wheel all the time. I also have more time to scan the road for anything going on. Looking down to see my speed, for example, (basically any action that takes my focus off the road for a second or two) is less stressful. It is utterly amazing technology and I still can't believe it is happening while I'm alive.

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
harrisonjackson 7y ago
Thanks! I haven't read many firsthand accounts.
- Erlich_Bachman 7y ago
  There are several youtube accounts (like "tesla driver") for solely this purpose - to show off how the autopilot behaves, in different situations, with hands or no hands, on long or short drives, in city, on highway, between the different autopilot update verions, in different weather etc. etc. If you are really interested you can already find a lot of firsthand information, with video no less so you can see exactly for yourself what the situation was and how AP handled it.

revscat 7y ago

> Anyone who has driven with autopilot, how quickly might it react to a perceived obstacle? Faster than me, sometimes. There was one time when I was driving through southern Illinois and some idiot decided to cross the highway. I was passing a semi, who was in the right lane, and doing around 10mph faster than him. The car starts flipping out, beeping and flashing red. I see a car that apparently appeared out of no where, perpendicular to me and pulling across the highway. She had made it — barely — in front of the semi, but didn’t see me. The car saw her before I did. I think it was because of the radar. But whatever, it braked hard and I barely missed her. Saved my ass.

bmat 7y ago

> Anyone who has driven with autopilot, how quickly might it react to a perceived obstacle? Would it take a hard turn into a median faster than a person could reasonably react if it thought there was something in the road or that the road took a hard left? The only thing my car has ever abruptly/unexpectedly done was brake, usually in response to an overpass it mistook as a stopped car. It's happened maybe 10-20 times in 10,000 miles. Not enough to cause a rear end collision or even an angry honk. I've always had time to take over. It's never taken a hard turn. The only times it catastrophically failed were when I knowingly put it in confusing situations: winding roads, poorly marked lanes, city driving, etc. In those cases I always have a death grip on the wheel, and the software seems to literally loosen its hold when it's feeling uncertain.

holstvoogd 7y ago

Exactly like autopilot on a plane! :o

eloisant 7y ago
There is a big difference between a plane (or a boat, where autopilot is also common) and a car. A plane or a boat is roaming in a vast, mostly empty space, in a straight line. Other planes/boats are both pretty far away and also following a mostly straight line. On the other hand a car operates in a very packed space, full of obstacles all moving in sometimes unpredictible way. That makes a huge difference when it comes to autopilot.

mseidl 7y ago

I'm reminded of the Apple debacle in the past, when holding the phone a certain way affected the antenna negatively. But in almost every ad it's being held that way. With Tesla ads they always show the hands off the wheel.

bjarneh 7y ago

> how quickly might it react to a perceived obstacle? Very quickly, you have a split second to avoid whatever it decides to steer towards. The problem becomes even worse after you factor in that autopilot only works in easy to drive conditions (i.e. highways with high speeds). To make things even worse, you get less attentive when you are passive for a long period. I.e. if the autopilot fails in your first 20 seconds of driving you may very well be able to react, but if it has been driving perfectly for 20 minutes, you're probably already lulled into a passive state, and way to slow to react.

radium3d 7y ago

I have a model 3 with autopilot and it takes very little pressure in the opposite direction on the wheel to disengage autopilot before it gets very far.