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In Romania we have Visa PayWave for years. For small amounts you just wave the card in from of the POS and you are done. For bigger amounts you are asked your P

In Romania we have Visa PayWave for years. For small amounts you just wave the card in from of the POS and you are done. For bigger amounts you are asked your PIN and I find that reasonable. I don't see how waving my watch in front of the POS would make this easier, it would actually be more cumbersome depending on how the POS is presented.

crooked-v 7y ago
In the US it's usually 'insert card into reader, then wait 30-90 seconds'. I don't know where the delay comes from, but Apple Pay is usually faster for me.
- filoleg 7y ago
  I actually recently realized that my local pharmacy chain (in WA) had that "wave" NFC icon on screen, so I decided to try tapping my credit card. To my surprise, it worked without a hitch, so now i consciously try to spot those. Quite a few places have those now, but they all seem to also support Apple Pay, so it makes more sense to use that for reliability (because all the ones supporting a card tap also support Apple Pay, but the reverse doesn't seem to be true).
- judge2020 7y ago
  30-90 seconds is a big exaggeration. Using chip without a pin number takes at most 5 seconds, and using a pin only increases the wait for the duration it takes to enter the code.
  - pathartl 7y ago
    While I agree with you it's definitely an exaggeration, part of the UX that's a bit of a pain for the purchaser is when the terminal is locked up until the cashier confirms the purchase. Either you're forced to leave your card in or you can't put your card in until they're ready. I really think some messaging to change it from "Please Wait" to "Waiting for cashier" would help the real non-tech-savvy people. My parents almost always have issues with the chip because of this. They'll pull out the card at the wrong time and such.
    - kelnos 7y ago
      I think some of this is dependent on the hardware used? At least for Apple/Google Pay, I've noticed that for some merchants (Safeway), I can "pay" at any point while the cashier is still scanning times, while for others (Trader Joe's), I have to wait until the cashier is done and moves the transaction into the payment phase. On the other hand, I don't recall a merchant where I could physically insert my card whenever I wanted, so the A/G Pay option is better in many/most places, even if there are some where you have to wait.
      - pathartl 7y ago
        Oh yeah, it depends on the hardware and also how they're configured
  - kelnos 7y ago
    I don't think I've ever seen a US chip reader take 5 seconds. 10-20 seconds seems to be the norm (at least for businesses that have always-on internet connections). Google Pay for me definitely takes under 5 seconds, unless the reader is particular about where I hold my phone, and I don't get it right on the first try.
    - PhantomGremlin 7y ago
      Costco chip read takes 1 or 2 seconds. Their POS software was obviously written by competent people who care about what they're doing. Not by clowns laid off by Barnum & Bailey. Edit: I did a few minutes of reflection about this, since it's an astonishing claim compared to standard practices. But what's probably happening has to do with membership. A checkout begins with the POS system scanning a membership card. So the system already knows exactly who they are dealing with. Then the chip read can probably do less in terms of the transaction; perhaps the transaction is automatically approved once an initial chip read verifies that the card is present. Just to be clear, this is using a standard Visa EMV credit card, not a Costco affiliated card.
  - cbhl 7y ago
    I think some of the US POS systems still use dial-up to talk to banks, so O(minutes) is not uncommon. (For example, the Clipper card machine...)
  - 3fe9a03ccd14ca5 7y ago
    My anecdotal experience in the super market is people have about a 15% error rate in removing the card too early, and have to start the entire process over again.
  - crooked-v 7y ago
    > at most 5 seconds Not where I live.
  - walshemj 7y ago
    Depends some readers still use POTS and would have to make a call. About 20 yeas ago before wide spread use on the internet in the UK they where looking at using the ISDN D channel to do card authentication
- brlewis 7y ago
  I'm in the U.S., and 2 of my 4 credit cards support contactless. One is Costco VISA, the other Discover.
- shawnz 7y ago
  Chip payments are slower than contactless payments with a card, too. Contactless payment wasn't Apple's innovation, although maybe you could say that popularizing it in the US was.
icebraining 7y ago
Exactly. PayWave and PayPass are both a decade old, and I'm already on my second contactless card.
- Angostura 7y ago
  Yeh, I’ve used contactless for years in the UK, but it’s limited to transactions under £30. Being able to use your phone and not fumble fir your wallet irrespective of transaction size is really quite nice.
  - riffraff 7y ago
    > but it’s limited to transactions under £30. this seems a limitation on your side (bank?), I've used contactless for larger expenses in other parts of Europe without issues (inserting a PIN).
    - Angostura 7y ago
      Its a general limitation imposed by the payment processors on contactless in the UK.
privateSFacct 7y ago
So we are 100% clear, contactless cards generally have very weak security relative to apple pay. https://www.which.co.uk/news/2015/07/which-reveals-contactless-card-flaw-409322/ https://www.which.co.uk/news/2015/07/which-reveals-contactle... There is a reason they are not being promoted in major markets.
- threeseed 7y ago
  In Australia we have supported contactless cards for close to a decade. The security issue isn't a big deal since (a) payments are limited to small amounts e.g. < $100 and (b) banks will indemnify you against credit card theft.
- nottorp 7y ago
  Transactions over some limit (in Romania it's over ~$25 because it's 100 local romanian lei so a nice round number) require you to enter the pin in the terminal. But the US doesn't seem to have discovered pin numbers. And judging by other posts for this story, you haven't discovered contactless payments either. They were available long before Apple Pay.
- fierarul 7y ago
  I dunno, I guess the card industry didn't stand still in the past 4 years since this news was published. I know my renewed card is newer then that and I never heard of this happening here. Not to mention needing PIN for larger purchases. I don't care how hyper-secure Apple Pay is. Cash also has some pretty weak security and people seem to use it just fine, the rare pickpocketing notwithstanding. From an UX point of view, using something at your fingertips to wave is more natural and it's also clear you are paying for something. Contorting your wrist so the Watch is close to the POS seems almost painful in some situations. Maybe waving the phone close to the POS would be better, but you have to reach for your phone the same way you reach for your card so it's a draw.

crooked-v 7y ago

In the US it's usually 'insert card into reader, then wait 30-90 seconds'. I don't know where the delay comes from, but Apple Pay is usually faster for me.

filoleg 7y ago
I actually recently realized that my local pharmacy chain (in WA) had that "wave" NFC icon on screen, so I decided to try tapping my credit card. To my surprise, it worked without a hitch, so now i consciously try to spot those. Quite a few places have those now, but they all seem to also support Apple Pay, so it makes more sense to use that for reliability (because all the ones supporting a card tap also support Apple Pay, but the reverse doesn't seem to be true).
judge2020 7y ago
30-90 seconds is a big exaggeration. Using chip without a pin number takes at most 5 seconds, and using a pin only increases the wait for the duration it takes to enter the code.
- pathartl 7y ago
  While I agree with you it's definitely an exaggeration, part of the UX that's a bit of a pain for the purchaser is when the terminal is locked up until the cashier confirms the purchase. Either you're forced to leave your card in or you can't put your card in until they're ready. I really think some messaging to change it from "Please Wait" to "Waiting for cashier" would help the real non-tech-savvy people. My parents almost always have issues with the chip because of this. They'll pull out the card at the wrong time and such.
  - kelnos 7y ago
    I think some of this is dependent on the hardware used? At least for Apple/Google Pay, I've noticed that for some merchants (Safeway), I can "pay" at any point while the cashier is still scanning times, while for others (Trader Joe's), I have to wait until the cashier is done and moves the transaction into the payment phase. On the other hand, I don't recall a merchant where I could physically insert my card whenever I wanted, so the A/G Pay option is better in many/most places, even if there are some where you have to wait.
    - pathartl 7y ago
      Oh yeah, it depends on the hardware and also how they're configured
- kelnos 7y ago
  I don't think I've ever seen a US chip reader take 5 seconds. 10-20 seconds seems to be the norm (at least for businesses that have always-on internet connections). Google Pay for me definitely takes under 5 seconds, unless the reader is particular about where I hold my phone, and I don't get it right on the first try.
  - PhantomGremlin 7y ago
    Costco chip read takes 1 or 2 seconds. Their POS software was obviously written by competent people who care about what they're doing. Not by clowns laid off by Barnum & Bailey. Edit: I did a few minutes of reflection about this, since it's an astonishing claim compared to standard practices. But what's probably happening has to do with membership. A checkout begins with the POS system scanning a membership card. So the system already knows exactly who they are dealing with. Then the chip read can probably do less in terms of the transaction; perhaps the transaction is automatically approved once an initial chip read verifies that the card is present. Just to be clear, this is using a standard Visa EMV credit card, not a Costco affiliated card.
- cbhl 7y ago
  I think some of the US POS systems still use dial-up to talk to banks, so O(minutes) is not uncommon. (For example, the Clipper card machine...)
- 3fe9a03ccd14ca5 7y ago
  My anecdotal experience in the super market is people have about a 15% error rate in removing the card too early, and have to start the entire process over again.
- crooked-v 7y ago
  > at most 5 seconds Not where I live.
- walshemj 7y ago
  Depends some readers still use POTS and would have to make a call. About 20 yeas ago before wide spread use on the internet in the UK they where looking at using the ISDN D channel to do card authentication
brlewis 7y ago
I'm in the U.S., and 2 of my 4 credit cards support contactless. One is Costco VISA, the other Discover.
shawnz 7y ago
Chip payments are slower than contactless payments with a card, too. Contactless payment wasn't Apple's innovation, although maybe you could say that popularizing it in the US was.

icebraining 7y ago

Exactly. PayWave and PayPass are both a decade old, and I'm already on my second contactless card.

Angostura 7y ago
Yeh, I’ve used contactless for years in the UK, but it’s limited to transactions under £30. Being able to use your phone and not fumble fir your wallet irrespective of transaction size is really quite nice.
- riffraff 7y ago
  > but it’s limited to transactions under £30. this seems a limitation on your side (bank?), I've used contactless for larger expenses in other parts of Europe without issues (inserting a PIN).
  - Angostura 7y ago
    Its a general limitation imposed by the payment processors on contactless in the UK.

privateSFacct 7y ago

So we are 100% clear, contactless cards generally have very weak security relative to apple pay. https://www.which.co.uk/news/2015/07/which-reveals-contactless-card-flaw-409322/ https://www.which.co.uk/news/2015/07/which-reveals-contactle... There is a reason they are not being promoted in major markets.

threeseed 7y ago
In Australia we have supported contactless cards for close to a decade. The security issue isn't a big deal since (a) payments are limited to small amounts e.g. < $100 and (b) banks will indemnify you against credit card theft.
nottorp 7y ago
Transactions over some limit (in Romania it's over ~$25 because it's 100 local romanian lei so a nice round number) require you to enter the pin in the terminal. But the US doesn't seem to have discovered pin numbers. And judging by other posts for this story, you haven't discovered contactless payments either. They were available long before Apple Pay.
fierarul 7y ago
I dunno, I guess the card industry didn't stand still in the past 4 years since this news was published. I know my renewed card is newer then that and I never heard of this happening here. Not to mention needing PIN for larger purchases. I don't care how hyper-secure Apple Pay is. Cash also has some pretty weak security and people seem to use it just fine, the rare pickpocketing notwithstanding. From an UX point of view, using something at your fingertips to wave is more natural and it's also clear you are paying for something. Contorting your wrist so the Watch is close to the POS seems almost painful in some situations. Maybe waving the phone close to the POS would be better, but you have to reach for your phone the same way you reach for your card so it's a draw.