5 ms·

> Ask a Chinese national coworker about Coronavirus right now and how things are going there and watch them not even flinch when they tell you that everything's

by yorwba 7y ago

> Ask a Chinese national coworker about Coronavirus right now and how things are going there and watch them not even flinch when they tell you that everything's fine and under control In my WeChat feed, I've seen a lot of panic about not being able to buy face masks or Shuanghuanglian and other kinds of traditional medicine, as well as outrage about the city of Dali intercepting shipments of face masks destined for other regions. "Everything's fine and under control" looks more like a minority opinion. Of course that could be biased by me attracting a certain kind of people, but ironically the harshest critics of the government in this case have been people I think of as "strong China" patriots/nationalists. Turns out they react especially negatively to government failures.

dwohnitmok 7y ago
I'm also seeing some more critical views of the government show up on my WeChat feed. I think neutral views of the government/exhortations to stay positive among my contacts on my feed still wins out slightly, but there's definitely some pretty harsh criticism and in some cases, disillusionment. The Chinese government is probably keenly aware of the growing discontent and is unlikely to overplay their hand and crack down hard on communications, at least at the moment. For example, they could've decided to block all mentions of Li Wenliang from the Chinese internet (as has happened with many other things in the past), but they haven't, at least not obviously. If they did, I suspect discontent would explode.
- allovernow 7y ago
  I appreciate your perspective. As an insider, do you think we can trust recently published literature from Chinese sources regarding the virus? This article[1] for example is somewhat reassuring but I don't know if the numbers are trustworthy. On the other hand I imagine academia is at least somewhat insulated from the reaches of the government and academics are probably more likely to be willing to take risks to communicate truth. 1.https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.02.06.20020974v1 https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.02.06.20020974v...
  - dwohnitmok 7y ago
    I'm not sure how much I'd consider myself an insider... luckily I happened to not be in China when all this happened so I'm watching from afar as well (although I would like to go back for a bit when all this blows over). No real idea sorry. I mean things look more transparent than what happened with SARS (which I can get into detail about if you want) and there's way more discussion in various different online venues this time around (more people also have access to the internet), but I don't really think I have a more trustworthy opinion beyond that weak assertion. And on the ground, well there's a lot of conflicting reports as happens in any major event.
- thaumasiotes 7y ago
  > The Chinese government is probably keenly aware of the growing discontent and is unlikely to overplay their hand and crack down hard on communications, at least at the moment. For example, they could've decided to block all mentions of Li Wenliang from the Chinese internet (as has happened with many other things in the past), but they haven't, at least not obviously. If they did, I suspect discontent would explode. Censorship on the topic is apparently being felt. https://www.unz.com/jderbyshire/still-90-chance-coronavirus-not-catastrophic-but-chinese-and-western-censors-arent-helping/ https://www.unz.com/jderbyshire/still-90-chance-coronavirus-... > Dr Li died on Wednesday or Thursday from exposure to the coronavirus. He leaves behind a pregnant wife and a young child. He is being dramatically mourned on social media sites, faster than the censors can scrub them. [Widespread Outcry in China Over Death of Coronavirus Doctor, by Li Yuan, NYT, February 7, 2020]( https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/07/business/china-coronavirus-doctor-death.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/07/business/china-coronaviru... ) There have even been demands he be given a state funeral. > That bagpipe band playing “Amazing Grace” that I heard while crossing my living-room was a popular nonverbal way to mourn. The censors rely on keywords in text; it takes them longer to figure out nonverbal protests.
thaumasiotes 7y ago
My contacts agree with you. (To be fair, I'm going off what I hear from ~4 people.) Nobody believes everything's fine. Views of the government are at rock bottom. Trust in the government is zero or negative. Here are some things that have been said to me (though this is private messages, not public feed posts): > the government is shit! [2020-01-24, followed by much unsolicited venting about the state of things in Wuhan as reported through unofficial channels] > 我觉得这次的疫情好像已经时空了 [I think it looks like we've already lost control of this epidemic] [2020-02-05] > 封闭了小区，外面的人不允许进来。每天还消毒（Me: 内面的人可以出来吗?）可以的，但是要有“出入证” [Our apartment complex has sealed itself, outsiders cannot enter. We disinfect every day. (Me: Can insiders leave?) Yes, but you need an exit/entry document] [2020-02-10] > 如果说，现在社会忽然流传某种说法，然后政府辟谣，然后大家就知道，这个说法是真的 [If a rumor suddenly spread through society, and then the government denied it, everyone would know it was the truth.] [2020-02-10] Social trust is down too; I also hear rumors of escapees from Wuhan concealing their sickness (this one's easy to believe) and of sick people striking back at the society that failed them by spreading their saliva on elevator buttons and doorknobs.
- allovernow 7y ago
  Thank you for this small window into another world.
  - thaumasiotes 7y ago
    Something that stuck with me (from long before the current crisis) was when I asked a friend how she thought Chinese people generally perceived America. The response was much as you'd expect: some people see it as a faraway paradise, some feel pretty negative, many don't really care. But she specifically mentioned one guy from her workplace who fell into the "relentlessly negative" camp, always criticizing America if he got the opportunity. She said even he admitted the US did one good thing that deserved the thanks of the Chinese people. That thing was publishing air pollution numbers based on measurements in American consulates in China. I usually think about this in terms of the apparently huge diplomatic win it presented for very minor effort, but it also says something about the level of trust in the Chinese government pre-crisis.
- thaumasiotes 7y ago
ashwinaj 7y ago
> In my WeChat feed, I've seen a lot of panic This is the problem, everything is hush hush or online. No one has the _____ to stand up and say this is not right. I'm only contrasting this with democratic govts. (However flawed the system is) have a voice to stand against a govt. This is non existent in China.
- yorwba 7y ago
  > everything is hush hush or online. No one has the _____ to stand up and say this is not right. What do you even mean by this? Online is how you reach the largest audience, so of course people are speaking out online if they want others to hear what they have to say.
  - ashwinaj 7y ago
    > Online is how you reach the largest audience So? Is this going to cause any change in the government's behavior: No. This is the literal definition of a paper tiger.

by yorwba 7y ago

dwohnitmok 7y ago

I'm also seeing some more critical views of the government show up on my WeChat feed. I think neutral views of the government/exhortations to stay positive among my contacts on my feed still wins out slightly, but there's definitely some pretty harsh criticism and in some cases, disillusionment. The Chinese government is probably keenly aware of the growing discontent and is unlikely to overplay their hand and crack down hard on communications, at least at the moment. For example, they could've decided to block all mentions of Li Wenliang from the Chinese internet (as has happened with many other things in the past), but they haven't, at least not obviously. If they did, I suspect discontent would explode.

allovernow 7y ago
I appreciate your perspective. As an insider, do you think we can trust recently published literature from Chinese sources regarding the virus? This article[1] for example is somewhat reassuring but I don't know if the numbers are trustworthy. On the other hand I imagine academia is at least somewhat insulated from the reaches of the government and academics are probably more likely to be willing to take risks to communicate truth. 1.https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.02.06.20020974v1 https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.02.06.20020974v...
- dwohnitmok 7y ago
  I'm not sure how much I'd consider myself an insider... luckily I happened to not be in China when all this happened so I'm watching from afar as well (although I would like to go back for a bit when all this blows over). No real idea sorry. I mean things look more transparent than what happened with SARS (which I can get into detail about if you want) and there's way more discussion in various different online venues this time around (more people also have access to the internet), but I don't really think I have a more trustworthy opinion beyond that weak assertion. And on the ground, well there's a lot of conflicting reports as happens in any major event.
thaumasiotes 7y ago
> The Chinese government is probably keenly aware of the growing discontent and is unlikely to overplay their hand and crack down hard on communications, at least at the moment. For example, they could've decided to block all mentions of Li Wenliang from the Chinese internet (as has happened with many other things in the past), but they haven't, at least not obviously. If they did, I suspect discontent would explode. Censorship on the topic is apparently being felt. https://www.unz.com/jderbyshire/still-90-chance-coronavirus-not-catastrophic-but-chinese-and-western-censors-arent-helping/ https://www.unz.com/jderbyshire/still-90-chance-coronavirus-... > Dr Li died on Wednesday or Thursday from exposure to the coronavirus. He leaves behind a pregnant wife and a young child. He is being dramatically mourned on social media sites, faster than the censors can scrub them. [Widespread Outcry in China Over Death of Coronavirus Doctor, by Li Yuan, NYT, February 7, 2020]( https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/07/business/china-coronavirus-doctor-death.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/07/business/china-coronaviru... ) There have even been demands he be given a state funeral. > That bagpipe band playing “Amazing Grace” that I heard while crossing my living-room was a popular nonverbal way to mourn. The censors rely on keywords in text; it takes them longer to figure out nonverbal protests.

thaumasiotes 7y ago

My contacts agree with you. (To be fair, I'm going off what I hear from ~4 people.) Nobody believes everything's fine. Views of the government are at rock bottom. Trust in the government is zero or negative. Here are some things that have been said to me (though this is private messages, not public feed posts): > the government is shit! [2020-01-24, followed by much unsolicited venting about the state of things in Wuhan as reported through unofficial channels] > 我觉得这次的疫情好像已经时空了 [I think it looks like we've already lost control of this epidemic] [2020-02-05] > 封闭了小区，外面的人不允许进来。每天还消毒（Me: 内面的人可以出来吗?）可以的，但是要有“出入证” [Our apartment complex has sealed itself, outsiders cannot enter. We disinfect every day. (Me: Can insiders leave?) Yes, but you need an exit/entry document] [2020-02-10] > 如果说，现在社会忽然流传某种说法，然后政府辟谣，然后大家就知道，这个说法是真的 [If a rumor suddenly spread through society, and then the government denied it, everyone would know it was the truth.] [2020-02-10] Social trust is down too; I also hear rumors of escapees from Wuhan concealing their sickness (this one's easy to believe) and of sick people striking back at the society that failed them by spreading their saliva on elevator buttons and doorknobs.

allovernow 7y ago
Thank you for this small window into another world.
- thaumasiotes 7y ago
  Something that stuck with me (from long before the current crisis) was when I asked a friend how she thought Chinese people generally perceived America. The response was much as you'd expect: some people see it as a faraway paradise, some feel pretty negative, many don't really care. But she specifically mentioned one guy from her workplace who fell into the "relentlessly negative" camp, always criticizing America if he got the opportunity. She said even he admitted the US did one good thing that deserved the thanks of the Chinese people. That thing was publishing air pollution numbers based on measurements in American consulates in China. I usually think about this in terms of the apparently huge diplomatic win it presented for very minor effort, but it also says something about the level of trust in the Chinese government pre-crisis.
thaumasiotes 7y ago

ashwinaj 7y ago

> In my WeChat feed, I've seen a lot of panic This is the problem, everything is hush hush or online. No one has the _____ to stand up and say this is not right. I'm only contrasting this with democratic govts. (However flawed the system is) have a voice to stand against a govt. This is non existent in China.

yorwba 7y ago
> everything is hush hush or online. No one has the _____ to stand up and say this is not right. What do you even mean by this? Online is how you reach the largest audience, so of course people are speaking out online if they want others to hear what they have to say.
- ashwinaj 7y ago
  > Online is how you reach the largest audience So? Is this going to cause any change in the government's behavior: No. This is the literal definition of a paper tiger.