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One of the Leavers' arguments was that the UK wouldn't be subject to the EU's regulations. They claimed that the EU rgulations were stifling and created too mu

by parsimo2010 7y ago

One of the Leavers' arguments was that the UK wouldn't be subject to the EU's regulations. They claimed that the EU rgulations were stifling and created too much of a nanny-state. Johnson's parliment is pretty much duty bound to create an environment of reduced regulation, otherwise they would be reneging on one of their most important platforms. Things like blatant crime should still be regulated, but creating an easier regulatory environment for businesses in the UK is absolutely a given next step.

Retric 7y ago
Regulations are not a single homogeneous entity. They could remove 5% or 95% of EU regulations and have kept their promise as long as the changes where a noticeable net positive.
- philpem 7y ago
  They could claim to have removed the regulations on the shape of fruit (which don't really exist in the way they were described) and secured some kind of fishing deal and call it a success.
threeseed 7y ago
Actually Johnson isn't going to be focused on reduced regulation. He will be focused on regulatory alignment with the US as he desperately needs to sign a US-UK FTA. And yes the US has a lot less regulations than the EU e.g. chlorinated chicken but in other areas it is not less but just different. UK businesses are going to find the next decade extremely painful as they deal with trying to support US and EU regulations whilst also dealing with customs controls at the border. So all of the pain with none of the benefits.
- thu2111 7y ago
  UK businesses are going to find the next decade extremely painful This seems over-board. Firstly, like in every country, most UK businesses don't sell abroad at all. So no, most businesses aren't going to find the next decade any different to the previous. Secondly, businesses that wanted to sell into both EU and US markets already had two sets of regulations to deal with and would have done no matter what. That is no different to what it was before either. Finally, businesses have been dealing with customs controls at the border for as long as international business has existed. That's hardly a big deal either. He will be focused on regulatory alignment with the US as he desperately needs to sign a US-UK FTA. No he doesn't. Plenty of countries around the world have perfectly fine economies and growth despite having no FTA in place with either the USA nor EU. It's nice to have but not essential for anything. Now, "regulatory alignment" doesn't have to mean adopting the exact same rules as the USA. That's the EU's approach but it's often not the best approach. A simpler way to gain the same benefits in most cases is just regulatory recognition. In cases where there's no actual fundamental disagreement between systems, but actually unifying them is unwanted for reasons of political independence (i.e. retaining the ability to fundamentally disagree in future) both countries can simply choose to accept products that comply with each other's sets of laws. The EU freaks out about this approach because the goal of the EU is not to make business easier but to unify Europe into a single country, and abolish the existing ones. Obviously to do that mutual recognition of standards is useless. Only obedience to a centrally controlled set of regulations will do the job. A lot of people in the UK have spent so many years under the thumb of this system that they find it hard to conceive of any other way.
  - razakel 7y ago
    >Firstly, like in every country, most UK businesses don't sell abroad at all. One third do. As for the rest, they may not trade abroad directly, but their suppliers and customers certainly will.
mellosouls 7y ago
These things are complicated and to be argued; speaking in absolutes is not helpful or justified. The most that can be said is that the Tories (and the harder Brexiteers) have a significant majority, which makes moves towards deregulation more likely - that doesn't mean it's the right thing to do, or will happen without considerable push-back from people who are not quite so ideological (or who are, but of the opposite persuasion).
- JackFr 7y ago
  > considerable push-back from people who are not quite so ideological considerable push-back from people who benefit from the current regulatory structure https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulatory_capture https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulatory_capture
  - mellosouls 7y ago
    Please don't misquote me: considerable push-back from people who are not quite so ideological (or who are, but of the opposite persuasion)
briandear 7y ago
Didn’t the EU actually regulate the shape of cucumbers and the output of tea kettles?
- majewsky 7y ago
  I remember news coverage debunking the claim that the EU regulated the shape of bananas and cucumbers. What actually happened is that existing trade standards were harmonized. When you go shopping for vegetables at a German supermarket, sometimes the price tag will say "Trade class A" or "Trade class B". Those trade classes are what's harmonized. Bent cucumbers aren't outruled, they're just categorized into a lower trade class in a way that's consistent across the European market. This benefits supermarket operators because, if their supplier offers "trade class A" cucumbers, they have a pretty solid idea how much cucumbers are going to fit in each crate and can plan their logistics more tightly. So no bean-counting nonsense here, just the benefits of standardization. Nobody would be angry at the EU for standardizing screw sizes, for example.
- tpush 7y ago
  No they didn't: https://wayback.archive-it.org/11980/20200128075524/https://blogs.ec.europa.eu/ECintheUK/ec-to-ban-curved-cucumbers/ https://wayback.archive-it.org/11980/20200128075524/https://...
  - pgeorgi 7y ago
    Main statements for visibility: "The only restriction is on the class denomination, and as such cucumbers are categorised by class with reference to specific standards for each class, including the degree of curve." "It must be made clear that the demand for these standards came from the industry itself"
ben_w 7y ago
One of the other Leaver arguments were that there would be no reduction in access to the EU internal market, and that the UK would be able to get even better access to those markets by leaving. Yes, I know it isn’t even coherent to expect “the EU” to grant the UK better access to the domestic markets of 27 nations than those nations give to each other, but when I raised this the response was either “that proves we should leave” or “that’s just project fear”, often preceded or followed with some comment about BMW, champagne, or the Spanish tourist industry. Point is, they will renege on their promises on this topic no matter what, so while your argument would normally be sensible, nobody can rely on that this time.

Retric 7y ago

Regulations are not a single homogeneous entity. They could remove 5% or 95% of EU regulations and have kept their promise as long as the changes where a noticeable net positive.

philpem 7y ago
They could claim to have removed the regulations on the shape of fruit (which don't really exist in the way they were described) and secured some kind of fishing deal and call it a success.

threeseed 7y ago

Actually Johnson isn't going to be focused on reduced regulation. He will be focused on regulatory alignment with the US as he desperately needs to sign a US-UK FTA. And yes the US has a lot less regulations than the EU e.g. chlorinated chicken but in other areas it is not less but just different. UK businesses are going to find the next decade extremely painful as they deal with trying to support US and EU regulations whilst also dealing with customs controls at the border. So all of the pain with none of the benefits.

thu2111 7y ago
UK businesses are going to find the next decade extremely painful This seems over-board. Firstly, like in every country, most UK businesses don't sell abroad at all. So no, most businesses aren't going to find the next decade any different to the previous. Secondly, businesses that wanted to sell into both EU and US markets already had two sets of regulations to deal with and would have done no matter what. That is no different to what it was before either. Finally, businesses have been dealing with customs controls at the border for as long as international business has existed. That's hardly a big deal either. He will be focused on regulatory alignment with the US as he desperately needs to sign a US-UK FTA. No he doesn't. Plenty of countries around the world have perfectly fine economies and growth despite having no FTA in place with either the USA nor EU. It's nice to have but not essential for anything. Now, "regulatory alignment" doesn't have to mean adopting the exact same rules as the USA. That's the EU's approach but it's often not the best approach. A simpler way to gain the same benefits in most cases is just regulatory recognition. In cases where there's no actual fundamental disagreement between systems, but actually unifying them is unwanted for reasons of political independence (i.e. retaining the ability to fundamentally disagree in future) both countries can simply choose to accept products that comply with each other's sets of laws. The EU freaks out about this approach because the goal of the EU is not to make business easier but to unify Europe into a single country, and abolish the existing ones. Obviously to do that mutual recognition of standards is useless. Only obedience to a centrally controlled set of regulations will do the job. A lot of people in the UK have spent so many years under the thumb of this system that they find it hard to conceive of any other way.
- razakel 7y ago
  >Firstly, like in every country, most UK businesses don't sell abroad at all. One third do. As for the rest, they may not trade abroad directly, but their suppliers and customers certainly will.

mellosouls 7y ago

These things are complicated and to be argued; speaking in absolutes is not helpful or justified. The most that can be said is that the Tories (and the harder Brexiteers) have a significant majority, which makes moves towards deregulation more likely - that doesn't mean it's the right thing to do, or will happen without considerable push-back from people who are not quite so ideological (or who are, but of the opposite persuasion).

JackFr 7y ago
> considerable push-back from people who are not quite so ideological considerable push-back from people who benefit from the current regulatory structure https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulatory_capture https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulatory_capture
- mellosouls 7y ago
  Please don't misquote me: considerable push-back from people who are not quite so ideological (or who are, but of the opposite persuasion)

briandear 7y ago

Didn’t the EU actually regulate the shape of cucumbers and the output of tea kettles?

majewsky 7y ago
I remember news coverage debunking the claim that the EU regulated the shape of bananas and cucumbers. What actually happened is that existing trade standards were harmonized. When you go shopping for vegetables at a German supermarket, sometimes the price tag will say "Trade class A" or "Trade class B". Those trade classes are what's harmonized. Bent cucumbers aren't outruled, they're just categorized into a lower trade class in a way that's consistent across the European market. This benefits supermarket operators because, if their supplier offers "trade class A" cucumbers, they have a pretty solid idea how much cucumbers are going to fit in each crate and can plan their logistics more tightly. So no bean-counting nonsense here, just the benefits of standardization. Nobody would be angry at the EU for standardizing screw sizes, for example.
tpush 7y ago
No they didn't: https://wayback.archive-it.org/11980/20200128075524/https://blogs.ec.europa.eu/ECintheUK/ec-to-ban-curved-cucumbers/ https://wayback.archive-it.org/11980/20200128075524/https://...
- pgeorgi 7y ago
  Main statements for visibility: "The only restriction is on the class denomination, and as such cucumbers are categorised by class with reference to specific standards for each class, including the degree of curve." "It must be made clear that the demand for these standards came from the industry itself"

ben_w 7y ago

One of the other Leaver arguments were that there would be no reduction in access to the EU internal market, and that the UK would be able to get even better access to those markets by leaving. Yes, I know it isn’t even coherent to expect “the EU” to grant the UK better access to the domestic markets of 27 nations than those nations give to each other, but when I raised this the response was either “that proves we should leave” or “that’s just project fear”, often preceded or followed with some comment about BMW, champagne, or the Spanish tourist industry. Point is, they will renege on their promises on this topic no matter what, so while your argument would normally be sensible, nobody can rely on that this time.