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Putting my tinfoil hat on, after reading the Snowden disclosures I'm convinced that they do have limited means of attacking encrypted communication but they wou

Putting my tinfoil hat on, after reading the Snowden disclosures I'm convinced that they do have limited means of attacking encrypted communication but they would rather rely on these (expendable) means. Once they lose their crypto vulnerabilities it will force them to be even more overt.

dmix 7y ago
The key difference is that decrypting something would likely need to be targeted and on a case-by-case basis, as it would take specialized work, as opposed to these sorts of attacks (much like tapping all of the pipes which transit data underseas or elsewhere, which still goes on in every country or working directly with the ISPs and mobile operators which happens in most countries) which allows mass dragnet surveillance. I think most of us would be fine with the NSA doing what they do if it was targeted, like the police getting warrants to break privacy only in important cases for public safety. The problem will always be mass interception. Not only domestically either, as there is nothing protecting any foreign communications being intercepted in the US (and I'm sure Five eyes+ bypasses these legal roadblocks whenever needed). Which is why the push for encrypt-everything is so important. But as we've seen repeatedly, even when investigating the president and his people, even the allegedly "significant domestic protections" offered by FISA are a joke and basically rubber-stamp. WhatsApp and iMessage and other non-SMS communication as well as email providers finally adopting proper transit encryption probably has reduced the amount of this sort of unfiltered "intelligence" gathering by 90%+. But I'm sure there's still tons of mobile apps and websites which aren't doing things properly and are filling up their databases.
- einpoklum 7y ago
  > I think most of us would be fine with the NSA doing what they do if it was targeted You think wrong. That fact that there are opposing world states engaging in this nefarious, oppressive, terrible acts and they're not all aligned doesn't legitimize any of these states' activities. The NSA should essentially be shut down, or cut down to a small agency operating in public with a much more limited mandate. And no secret FISA courts all of that spy-movie crap. That should just stop, period.
  - streb-lo 7y ago
    You do realize there is a world that exists beyond your idealism and naivete?
    - ozim 7y ago
      Hmm, nah I don't think people understand that they created NSA. It is them and their neighbor living in quiet area paying taxes where government want to keep them quiet and keep paying. This way of things is giving birth to idealism and naivete. Just like people living in cities are idealistic and naive about life of cattle and poultry. You don't want innocent chicken to be killed, but it is tasty. You don't want innocent person to be kept in hidden prison, but you feel safer. They all would like to close down the farms or agencies that deal with bad stuff, but once they will be hungry enough that they will have to kill an animal or will be faced with actual violence, they will change their mind right away. (I bet they will want someone else to deal with such things) If someone lives comfy life he can be oblivious. But on the other hand that is also beneficial for society because people in first world countries can focus on growing their interests and don't mind that bad stuff. In the end if I would have to kill chickens for food every day I could not learn software development. So I am grateful I don't have to. I am also grateful that I don't have to deal with criminal people every day, because also I probably would not have time to do software development (most likely I would be dead before my 20th birthday).
      - friendly_fren 7y ago
        A spy agency is necessary for the USA to compete on the world stage. Though, it's operations should be significantly limited. The CIA is a disaster that needs to be dismantled.
        einpoklum 7y ago
        The conceit of planetary-level politics being a "competition" is - with due respect - propaganda of the imperialist powers, that most of us are being fed and expected to buy into. Don't. In fact, with deepening global threats like climate change and nuclear war (), it is becoming clear just how mortally dangerous such perceptions are. So: Stop supporting "competition on the world stage". --- Yes, that is still a thing and making quite the comeback; see: https://www.newsweek.com/us-military-new-nuclear-weapons-782853 https://www.newsweek.com/us-military-new-nuclear-weapons-782... and https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jan/28/us-nuclear-weapons-first-low-yield-warheads-roll-off-the-production-line https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jan/28/us-nuclear-wea... for example.
- AtlasBarfed 7y ago
  All it takes is one elected president who could upend the other branches, and the three letters become much more scary. But thats just a partisan political beliefs, right?
- _-___________-_ 7y ago
  > WhatsApp and iMessage Don't both of these have default/recommended configurations that back up your chats to cloud services?
  - judge2020 7y ago
    iCloud just recently added Messages in iCloud, but I know a fair amount of people that turn it off since the default iCloud storage space is 5gb.
    - _-___________-_ 7y ago
      So the messages on your phone are not backed up with the normal iCloud backup? I know WhatsApp nags to turn on chat backup to the cloud.
      - judge2020 7y ago
        normal iCloud backup I don't think so, but it does ask you to turn on 'messages in icloud' once you upgrade to iOS 13 and/or get a new phone, albeing one time only.
- tripzilch 7y ago
  > I think most of us would be fine with the NSA doing what they do if it was targeted, like the police getting warrants to break privacy only in important cases for public safety. Except it's not getting a warrant, but simply deciding whether to spend resources. Which is not something that, like a warrant, I would be fine with. Also there's another difference, technically it'll never really be on a case-by-case basis, because they can store all the encrypted communication (text chats, just store everything, easily). And they can in hindsight decide to decrypt any of that history (depending on ample metadata). Or maybe they have a tiered system, a first-pass filter that detects a very vague definition of "possibly maybe interesting" (again, metadata) that would never ever pass a warrant request. Then just store everything that passes the filter, forever, and decrypt when needed.
- maqp 7y ago
  iMessage is so riddled with problems from using weak RSA key sizes (1280 bits), to using RSA in the first place (thus no forward secrecy), to apple essentially managing the public keys for the user (which allows transparent MITM due to lack of public key fingerprints). Also, both iMessage and WhatsApp are proprietary, thus it's almost impossible to verify the code you're running is safe. You're right in that E2EE has become more common, but seeing how the intelligence agencies have targeted major vendors like Crypto AG and RSA, we should be extra careful with popular, proprietary systems.
JoeSmithson 7y ago
What documents from the Snowden leaks convinced you of that?
nyolfen 7y ago
snowden explicitly said pgp was safe
- tptacek 7y ago
  How on Earth would he know? He's not a cryptographer. Much of what we've learned from the Snowden disclosures has been through experts granted access to the SCIF that houses the documents he exfiltrated. He didn't carefully review those documents before collecting them. I think it's really difficult to come to any kind of firm conclusion about what NSA can and can't break, even with a background in the material. I tend to doubt NSA has a world-beating RSA class break locked away. But I don't think people should be making decisions based on Snowden's personal technical opinions.
  - einpoklum 7y ago
    > How on Earth would he know? I'm sure he said "to my knowledge" or something to that effect. That is, at least for at least relatively far into the circles of confidence, people did not know about encryption being broken algorithmicly or PGP broken in practice.
    - dsl 7y ago
      Which might also be a false-flag to encourage the use of PGP. Russia has world class cryptographers too, and may have beaten the NSA to the punch. Snowden is after all currently living under FSB protection, which I doubt came for free. Someone willing to sell out their country would likely sell out its people too.
      - einpoklum 7y ago
        Snowden as a false flag? Well, it's theoretically possible, but quite unlikely IMHO.
  - nyolfen 7y ago
    it was not his opinion; he mentioned in an interview that when analysts would try to pass along pgp-encrypted messages for cryptanalysis they would be rebuffed, as an example to demonstrate that there is properly-implemented strong cryptography resists scrutiny by nsa. here is documentation: https://twitter.com/Snowden/status/878686842631139334 https://twitter.com/Snowden/status/878686842631139334
Forgivenessizer 7y ago
SNEAKERNETWORK (an humble submission to cure some crypto ills) It's time to resurrect the one time pad (not referring here to 2 factor authentication (2FA), I should hope to include 2FA FIDO in a Sneakernetwork standard), but rather the process of generating random data, shared between only two people, for the purpose of the most primitive of systems of encrypted communication. Simplest, but most secure(!!!) There is a lot of research in this area, and each issue can be addressed (for example, the risk of reuse can be solved in various ways). What we need is a way to "sneakernetwork" our otp random data to our friends. Like a business card, only where it's a mutual otp between these friends. For most people, 99% of important communications could be handled this way, through only a single contact. Certainly one could easily text for life with a single SDHC card of otp. And an SSD could handle phonecalls. A lifetime of video calls (again, between the two parties) aren't out of reach either. What we also need is a networking protocol that supports forwarding through the web of trust messages to parties known only at the fringes of one's social network. For example, connections of the 1st degree are sneakernetworked contacts. Like you visit your mother, you share an otp blob. Now, even if your mother is in another country you can never visit, you can always talk to her about politics or religion without any worries about oppressive authorities. But out from there, anyone who is in your mother's 1st degree network can be added to your own 2nd degree network, depending upon her permissions. This kind of p2p interworking. Before you object that "real" encryption is also needed, I agree, "real" encryption in addition to otp (it needs to be throughout a well-designed sneakernetwork system). But otp is superior, and, if you have to choose, choose otp. There is no reason why the security of assymmetric encryption should matter to ordinary (or the majority of extraordinary) people. It might be different for you, but 100% of the people I've had important conversations with have been friends I know from life, family, which I unsurprisingly know from life, and financial institutions of various kinds, which have offices for physical contact. And I know the very thought of otp makes some people ill. It reminds one of hack jobs. Yet there it is, as factual, the best encryption, perfectly suited to normal people, and with data capacities at the level where it's beyond practical. What we lack is adequate paranoia and vision in the tech community.
chiefalchemist 7y ago
No tinfoil hat necessary. You're simply being practical. I mean, only the naive expect honesty from the three-letter acronyms. Honest is not their job.
onetimemanytime 7y ago
I think so too but reserve them for Bin Laden or "Iran is planning a Pearl Harbor type attack" cases, otherwise people would stop using these methods of communicating. Maybe very few people within the CIA /NSA even know of such abilities.
totalZero 7y ago
I think this very suspicion is the reason Tor usage inflected down in Germany after the Snowden disclosures.

dmix 7y ago

The key difference is that decrypting something would likely need to be targeted and on a case-by-case basis, as it would take specialized work, as opposed to these sorts of attacks (much like tapping all of the pipes which transit data underseas or elsewhere, which still goes on in every country or working directly with the ISPs and mobile operators which happens in most countries) which allows mass dragnet surveillance. I think most of us would be fine with the NSA doing what they do if it was targeted, like the police getting warrants to break privacy only in important cases for public safety. The problem will always be mass interception. Not only domestically either, as there is nothing protecting any foreign communications being intercepted in the US (and I'm sure Five eyes+ bypasses these legal roadblocks whenever needed). Which is why the push for encrypt-everything is so important. But as we've seen repeatedly, even when investigating the president and his people, even the allegedly "significant domestic protections" offered by FISA are a joke and basically rubber-stamp. WhatsApp and iMessage and other non-SMS communication as well as email providers finally adopting proper transit encryption probably has reduced the amount of this sort of unfiltered "intelligence" gathering by 90%+. But I'm sure there's still tons of mobile apps and websites which aren't doing things properly and are filling up their databases.

einpoklum 7y ago
> I think most of us would be fine with the NSA doing what they do if it was targeted You think wrong. That fact that there are opposing world states engaging in this nefarious, oppressive, terrible acts and they're not all aligned doesn't legitimize any of these states' activities. The NSA should essentially be shut down, or cut down to a small agency operating in public with a much more limited mandate. And no secret FISA courts all of that spy-movie crap. That should just stop, period.
- streb-lo 7y ago
  You do realize there is a world that exists beyond your idealism and naivete?
  - ozim 7y ago
    Hmm, nah I don't think people understand that they created NSA. It is them and their neighbor living in quiet area paying taxes where government want to keep them quiet and keep paying. This way of things is giving birth to idealism and naivete. Just like people living in cities are idealistic and naive about life of cattle and poultry. You don't want innocent chicken to be killed, but it is tasty. You don't want innocent person to be kept in hidden prison, but you feel safer. They all would like to close down the farms or agencies that deal with bad stuff, but once they will be hungry enough that they will have to kill an animal or will be faced with actual violence, they will change their mind right away. (I bet they will want someone else to deal with such things) If someone lives comfy life he can be oblivious. But on the other hand that is also beneficial for society because people in first world countries can focus on growing their interests and don't mind that bad stuff. In the end if I would have to kill chickens for food every day I could not learn software development. So I am grateful I don't have to. I am also grateful that I don't have to deal with criminal people every day, because also I probably would not have time to do software development (most likely I would be dead before my 20th birthday).
    - friendly_fren 7y ago
      A spy agency is necessary for the USA to compete on the world stage. Though, it's operations should be significantly limited. The CIA is a disaster that needs to be dismantled.
      - einpoklum 7y ago
        The conceit of planetary-level politics being a "competition" is - with due respect - propaganda of the imperialist powers, that most of us are being fed and expected to buy into. Don't. In fact, with deepening global threats like climate change and nuclear war (), it is becoming clear just how mortally dangerous such perceptions are. So: Stop supporting "competition on the world stage". --- Yes, that is still a thing and making quite the comeback; see: https://www.newsweek.com/us-military-new-nuclear-weapons-782853 https://www.newsweek.com/us-military-new-nuclear-weapons-782... and https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jan/28/us-nuclear-weapons-first-low-yield-warheads-roll-off-the-production-line https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jan/28/us-nuclear-wea... for example.
AtlasBarfed 7y ago
All it takes is one elected president who could upend the other branches, and the three letters become much more scary. But thats just a partisan political beliefs, right?
_-___________-_ 7y ago
> WhatsApp and iMessage Don't both of these have default/recommended configurations that back up your chats to cloud services?
- judge2020 7y ago
  iCloud just recently added Messages in iCloud, but I know a fair amount of people that turn it off since the default iCloud storage space is 5gb.
  - _-___________-_ 7y ago
    So the messages on your phone are not backed up with the normal iCloud backup? I know WhatsApp nags to turn on chat backup to the cloud.
    - judge2020 7y ago
      normal iCloud backup I don't think so, but it does ask you to turn on 'messages in icloud' once you upgrade to iOS 13 and/or get a new phone, albeing one time only.
tripzilch 7y ago
> I think most of us would be fine with the NSA doing what they do if it was targeted, like the police getting warrants to break privacy only in important cases for public safety. Except it's not getting a warrant, but simply deciding whether to spend resources. Which is not something that, like a warrant, I would be fine with. Also there's another difference, technically it'll never really be on a case-by-case basis, because they can store all the encrypted communication (text chats, just store everything, easily). And they can in hindsight decide to decrypt any of that history (depending on ample metadata). Or maybe they have a tiered system, a first-pass filter that detects a very vague definition of "possibly maybe interesting" (again, metadata) that would never ever pass a warrant request. Then just store everything that passes the filter, forever, and decrypt when needed.
maqp 7y ago
iMessage is so riddled with problems from using weak RSA key sizes (1280 bits), to using RSA in the first place (thus no forward secrecy), to apple essentially managing the public keys for the user (which allows transparent MITM due to lack of public key fingerprints). Also, both iMessage and WhatsApp are proprietary, thus it's almost impossible to verify the code you're running is safe. You're right in that E2EE has become more common, but seeing how the intelligence agencies have targeted major vendors like Crypto AG and RSA, we should be extra careful with popular, proprietary systems.

JoeSmithson 7y ago

What documents from the Snowden leaks convinced you of that?

nyolfen 7y ago

snowden explicitly said pgp was safe

tptacek 7y ago
How on Earth would he know? He's not a cryptographer. Much of what we've learned from the Snowden disclosures has been through experts granted access to the SCIF that houses the documents he exfiltrated. He didn't carefully review those documents before collecting them. I think it's really difficult to come to any kind of firm conclusion about what NSA can and can't break, even with a background in the material. I tend to doubt NSA has a world-beating RSA class break locked away. But I don't think people should be making decisions based on Snowden's personal technical opinions.
- einpoklum 7y ago
  > How on Earth would he know? I'm sure he said "to my knowledge" or something to that effect. That is, at least for at least relatively far into the circles of confidence, people did not know about encryption being broken algorithmicly or PGP broken in practice.
  - dsl 7y ago
    Which might also be a false-flag to encourage the use of PGP. Russia has world class cryptographers too, and may have beaten the NSA to the punch. Snowden is after all currently living under FSB protection, which I doubt came for free. Someone willing to sell out their country would likely sell out its people too.
    - einpoklum 7y ago
      Snowden as a false flag? Well, it's theoretically possible, but quite unlikely IMHO.
- nyolfen 7y ago
  it was not his opinion; he mentioned in an interview that when analysts would try to pass along pgp-encrypted messages for cryptanalysis they would be rebuffed, as an example to demonstrate that there is properly-implemented strong cryptography resists scrutiny by nsa. here is documentation: https://twitter.com/Snowden/status/878686842631139334 https://twitter.com/Snowden/status/878686842631139334

Forgivenessizer 7y ago

SNEAKERNETWORK (an humble submission to cure some crypto ills) It's time to resurrect the one time pad (not referring here to 2 factor authentication (2FA), I should hope to include 2FA FIDO in a Sneakernetwork standard), but rather the process of generating random data, shared between only two people, for the purpose of the most primitive of systems of encrypted communication. Simplest, but most secure(!!!) There is a lot of research in this area, and each issue can be addressed (for example, the risk of reuse can be solved in various ways). What we need is a way to "sneakernetwork" our otp random data to our friends. Like a business card, only where it's a mutual otp between these friends. For most people, 99% of important communications could be handled this way, through only a single contact. Certainly one could easily text for life with a single SDHC card of otp. And an SSD could handle phonecalls. A lifetime of video calls (again, between the two parties) aren't out of reach either. What we also need is a networking protocol that supports forwarding through the web of trust messages to parties known only at the fringes of one's social network. For example, connections of the 1st degree are sneakernetworked contacts. Like you visit your mother, you share an otp blob. Now, even if your mother is in another country you can never visit, you can always talk to her about politics or religion without any worries about oppressive authorities. But out from there, anyone who is in your mother's 1st degree network can be added to your own 2nd degree network, depending upon her permissions. This kind of p2p interworking. Before you object that "real" encryption is also needed, I agree, "real" encryption in addition to otp (it needs to be throughout a well-designed sneakernetwork system). But otp is superior, and, if you have to choose, choose otp. There is no reason why the security of assymmetric encryption should matter to ordinary (or the majority of extraordinary) people. It might be different for you, but 100% of the people I've had important conversations with have been friends I know from life, family, which I unsurprisingly know from life, and financial institutions of various kinds, which have offices for physical contact. And I know the very thought of otp makes some people ill. It reminds one of hack jobs. Yet there it is, as factual, the best encryption, perfectly suited to normal people, and with data capacities at the level where it's beyond practical. What we lack is adequate paranoia and vision in the tech community.

chiefalchemist 7y ago

No tinfoil hat necessary. You're simply being practical. I mean, only the naive expect honesty from the three-letter acronyms. Honest is not their job.

onetimemanytime 7y ago

I think so too but reserve them for Bin Laden or "Iran is planning a Pearl Harbor type attack" cases, otherwise people would stop using these methods of communicating. Maybe very few people within the CIA /NSA even know of such abilities.

totalZero 7y ago

I think this very suspicion is the reason Tor usage inflected down in Germany after the Snowden disclosures.