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I've always thought it was unintended apathy. Making a (relatively) better choice will seemingly have no effect on lifting them out of poverty any time soon, so

I've always thought it was unintended apathy. Making a (relatively) better choice will seemingly have no effect on lifting them out of poverty any time soon, so why bother? Do the thing that maximizes their pleasure, comfort, hope, etc. in the short term, because things are never going to change in the long term. This article seems to hint at this perspective when talking about not being able to take a break from poverty, but it never seems to make that leap.

ericlewis 7y ago
This is something I observe in family members.
52-6F-62 7y ago
Absolutely. To extend upon that, the reasoning behind the short-term gratification isn't simply the inability to see the benefits of longer-term investment. It's also the need for relief in the short term. Negative impacts of that disposition can be compounding, and psychologically harmful without a break.
ChuckNorris89 7y ago
>No. Poverty is a lack of education and, more importantly, mentorship. Yep, you nailed it. A friend of mine was ranting on how the poor people(in Europe) spend their money on iPhones, cigars, alcohol and cable TV instead of saving it. Lately, I realized that poor people spend their money on those things since it's their way of short term escapism from feeling poor and if they were to save it, the amount would be too small to suddenly lift them out of poverty so they don't even bother. However, if poor people were clever, or had good mentorship, they would save that money and spend it on some courses in tech like sys-admin or getting certified as a professional plumber for example and get a better paying job, leading to a path out of poverty. Unfortunately, most popele don't have the will or the guidance to figure this out by themselves. Edit: Sorry, replied to the wrong parent
- walkingolof 7y ago
  >Unfortunately, most popele don't have the will or the guidance to figure this out. That is an incredibly naive way of looking at the problem.
  - allovernow 7y ago
    Not at all. What's naive is presuming that people in poverty are just as driven and equipped to make good decisions as you are. Whether poverty causes ignorance and complacency or the relationship is reversed (it probably goes both ways and depends on the person) there's no question that a sizable minority, if not the majority, of people in poverty are quite content to live off of the government and spend their days idle. Partly because of the mentioned lack of guidance, partly because of ignorance, and partly because not all people have ambitions beyond having their basic needs met. You have to put yourself into the shoes of someone who did not pay any attention in school, if they attended. Has no real grasp of the utility of math or science or knowledge in general. No intrinsic thirst for learning or accomplishment. Take food, cigarettes, maybe other drugs (alcohol included) as funds permit, cheap entertainment (TV, Facebook, Instagram), and sex, and you have a recipe for millions of content lives which are a net cost to greater society. And what's worse is that the children of these types of people grow up in a similar environment and pick up the same fundamentally rotten culture. Sorry to be harsh but this is the reality - no amount of funds will fix broken culture.
    - fzeroracer 7y ago
      It's really amazing to see the mental gymnastics going on here to try and paint the people born into poverty as those with a broken culture, no ambition and being a net drain on society. I was one of those people born into poverty. Your post is remarkably ignorant of the circumstances we faced and dealt with, and why cheap entertainment is used as an escape from the crushing levels of bullshit we had to deal with on a daily basis. For someone who says to put yourself into the shoes of the poor, you could do with a reality check yourself.
      - tristor 7y ago
- metalliqaz 7y ago
  >spend their money on iPhones, cigars, alcohol and cable TV instead of saving it Do you spend your money on those things instead of saving it?
  - ChuckNorris89 7y ago
    Just to humour you, I work in tech, I have a 4 year old mid-range phone, 4 year old mid-range laptop, no cable, no TV, except for some gadgets that increase my quality of life both mentality and physically, I don't smoke and rarely drink but I do buy the best quality food that I can for cooking and rarely go to restaurants. Since I don't come from money, I try to save as much as I can so I can buy my own place and start my own business in the future. Meanwhile one of my youngest friends who works as a bike food delivery agent, owns a MacBook Pro, the latest iPhone, a PS4 with an ever increasing library of games, goes clubbing a lot and complains he can't find a good job.<face:palm> Unfortunately, the latter example is an ever growing category in Europe of future failures since youngsters are told they can be and do whatever they want and opportunities will just come to you if you're patient and if that fails, the government is there to support you. Not saying I'm a poster child for financial success, far from it, I have my own guilty pleasures that keep my sanity intact, everybody has, but most people born in lower class families seem to be clueless about how to get out and it ain't by frivolous spending.
  - username90 7y ago
    I don't spend money on any of those things, I have lived on way less than most articles like this say is possible my whole life. "But, even though you can be happy like that others can't, they need to indulge!", well shit, maybe that has something to do with their poverty then? Why should I help others indulge when I don't do it myself? Sounds like bullshit to me.
luckylion 7y ago
That's pretty much the idea behind Locus of control, the (perceived) degree of control you have over the outcome of the future vs outside forces beyond your control. If you don't believe it matters what you do, not wasting energy is the rational answer.
SkyMarshal 7y ago
>unintended apathy I think there’s a psychology term for that, Learned Helplessness: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Learned_helplessness https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Learned_helplessness
joecool1029 7y ago
>unintended apathy. I believe the psychological term for this is 'learned helplessness'. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Learned_helplessness https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Learned_helplessness
seneca 7y ago
That's a lot of it. Having grown up poor myself, and having family and old connections that are still poor, I can tell you that there's another element to it as well. A lot of poor people resent society due to their poverty. There's a constant meme that their poverty is some one else's fault ("the man", "the rich", "white people", "government", "minorities", "foreigners" are all common ones, depending who you're talking to). It's a defeatist point of view, but it does two things. It allows them to protect their egos by directing blame for their situation at other people. It also allows them to justify poor decisions, because the world is setup against them, so why bother? You will often see this kind of rhetoric if you spend casual time with people in poverty. You'll also see a slightly different permutation of this, where some people in poverty see the way out as only possible through someone else's actions. Whether that be a charity, the government, or just a personal relationship. They feel very disempowered and defeated, and often look for events out of their control to "save" them, rather than taking actions to correct their situation. Again, why bother saving money if you can't fix the situation. You might as well have a good time while you wait for someone else to save you. I, personally, believe these mental traps to be a non-trivial part of what keeps people in poverty.
- celticmusic 7y ago
  I grew up poor with some bouts of homelessness, and this isn't my experience at all.
anongraddebt 7y ago
I think this is likely the case. A number of years ago my parents heard of a very young single mother in their community. She was being housed at a local woman's shelter, but was kicked out for continually breaking the rules regarding use of the stipend that was provided for each mother. She had two kids and nowhere to go, so my parents took her in for what they thought would be a couple weeks. The weeks bled into months, and by the time that my parents thought she would be fine moving out, they had housed her for close to half a year. My parents learned many new things about poverty by having her and her kids there for so long. One of the most significant was the severity of the mental/emotional/psychological strain that someone who is destitute is burdened with. My parents were able to find her a part-time job, they paid for everything, and cooked most of the meals. She struggled though to even just get up in the morning, let alone make it to work on time or even go at all. She lost the job. And sometimes all she could do was sit on the porch and chain smoke. About a half a year later my parents decided that she was probably well enough to be independent. They worked with some other families in the community to get her an apartment, a car, and a new job (good pay and part-time). She still has a lot of struggles, but can now fend for herself. I'm guessing some people who lift themselves from poverty are both lucky and have a psychological makeup which keeps them stable enough to do the necessary work in getting there. We either forget, ignore, or are ignorant of others that need a lot more hand-holding along the way.

ericlewis 7y ago

This is something I observe in family members.

52-6F-62 7y ago

Absolutely. To extend upon that, the reasoning behind the short-term gratification isn't simply the inability to see the benefits of longer-term investment. It's also the need for relief in the short term. Negative impacts of that disposition can be compounding, and psychologically harmful without a break.

ChuckNorris89 7y ago

>No. Poverty is a lack of education and, more importantly, mentorship. Yep, you nailed it. A friend of mine was ranting on how the poor people(in Europe) spend their money on iPhones, cigars, alcohol and cable TV instead of saving it. Lately, I realized that poor people spend their money on those things since it's their way of short term escapism from feeling poor and if they were to save it, the amount would be too small to suddenly lift them out of poverty so they don't even bother. However, if poor people were clever, or had good mentorship, they would save that money and spend it on some courses in tech like sys-admin or getting certified as a professional plumber for example and get a better paying job, leading to a path out of poverty. Unfortunately, most popele don't have the will or the guidance to figure this out by themselves. Edit: Sorry, replied to the wrong parent

walkingolof 7y ago
>Unfortunately, most popele don't have the will or the guidance to figure this out. That is an incredibly naive way of looking at the problem.
- allovernow 7y ago
  Not at all. What's naive is presuming that people in poverty are just as driven and equipped to make good decisions as you are. Whether poverty causes ignorance and complacency or the relationship is reversed (it probably goes both ways and depends on the person) there's no question that a sizable minority, if not the majority, of people in poverty are quite content to live off of the government and spend their days idle. Partly because of the mentioned lack of guidance, partly because of ignorance, and partly because not all people have ambitions beyond having their basic needs met. You have to put yourself into the shoes of someone who did not pay any attention in school, if they attended. Has no real grasp of the utility of math or science or knowledge in general. No intrinsic thirst for learning or accomplishment. Take food, cigarettes, maybe other drugs (alcohol included) as funds permit, cheap entertainment (TV, Facebook, Instagram), and sex, and you have a recipe for millions of content lives which are a net cost to greater society. And what's worse is that the children of these types of people grow up in a similar environment and pick up the same fundamentally rotten culture. Sorry to be harsh but this is the reality - no amount of funds will fix broken culture.
  - fzeroracer 7y ago
    It's really amazing to see the mental gymnastics going on here to try and paint the people born into poverty as those with a broken culture, no ambition and being a net drain on society. I was one of those people born into poverty. Your post is remarkably ignorant of the circumstances we faced and dealt with, and why cheap entertainment is used as an escape from the crushing levels of bullshit we had to deal with on a daily basis. For someone who says to put yourself into the shoes of the poor, you could do with a reality check yourself.
    - tristor 7y ago
metalliqaz 7y ago
>spend their money on iPhones, cigars, alcohol and cable TV instead of saving it Do you spend your money on those things instead of saving it?
- ChuckNorris89 7y ago
  Just to humour you, I work in tech, I have a 4 year old mid-range phone, 4 year old mid-range laptop, no cable, no TV, except for some gadgets that increase my quality of life both mentality and physically, I don't smoke and rarely drink but I do buy the best quality food that I can for cooking and rarely go to restaurants. Since I don't come from money, I try to save as much as I can so I can buy my own place and start my own business in the future. Meanwhile one of my youngest friends who works as a bike food delivery agent, owns a MacBook Pro, the latest iPhone, a PS4 with an ever increasing library of games, goes clubbing a lot and complains he can't find a good job.<face:palm> Unfortunately, the latter example is an ever growing category in Europe of future failures since youngsters are told they can be and do whatever they want and opportunities will just come to you if you're patient and if that fails, the government is there to support you. Not saying I'm a poster child for financial success, far from it, I have my own guilty pleasures that keep my sanity intact, everybody has, but most people born in lower class families seem to be clueless about how to get out and it ain't by frivolous spending.
- username90 7y ago
  I don't spend money on any of those things, I have lived on way less than most articles like this say is possible my whole life. "But, even though you can be happy like that others can't, they need to indulge!", well shit, maybe that has something to do with their poverty then? Why should I help others indulge when I don't do it myself? Sounds like bullshit to me.

luckylion 7y ago

That's pretty much the idea behind Locus of control, the (perceived) degree of control you have over the outcome of the future vs outside forces beyond your control. If you don't believe it matters what you do, not wasting energy is the rational answer.

SkyMarshal 7y ago

>unintended apathy I think there’s a psychology term for that, Learned Helplessness: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Learned_helplessness https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Learned_helplessness

joecool1029 7y ago

>unintended apathy. I believe the psychological term for this is 'learned helplessness'. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Learned_helplessness https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Learned_helplessness

seneca 7y ago

That's a lot of it. Having grown up poor myself, and having family and old connections that are still poor, I can tell you that there's another element to it as well. A lot of poor people resent society due to their poverty. There's a constant meme that their poverty is some one else's fault ("the man", "the rich", "white people", "government", "minorities", "foreigners" are all common ones, depending who you're talking to). It's a defeatist point of view, but it does two things. It allows them to protect their egos by directing blame for their situation at other people. It also allows them to justify poor decisions, because the world is setup against them, so why bother? You will often see this kind of rhetoric if you spend casual time with people in poverty. You'll also see a slightly different permutation of this, where some people in poverty see the way out as only possible through someone else's actions. Whether that be a charity, the government, or just a personal relationship. They feel very disempowered and defeated, and often look for events out of their control to "save" them, rather than taking actions to correct their situation. Again, why bother saving money if you can't fix the situation. You might as well have a good time while you wait for someone else to save you. I, personally, believe these mental traps to be a non-trivial part of what keeps people in poverty.

celticmusic 7y ago
I grew up poor with some bouts of homelessness, and this isn't my experience at all.

anongraddebt 7y ago

I think this is likely the case. A number of years ago my parents heard of a very young single mother in their community. She was being housed at a local woman's shelter, but was kicked out for continually breaking the rules regarding use of the stipend that was provided for each mother. She had two kids and nowhere to go, so my parents took her in for what they thought would be a couple weeks. The weeks bled into months, and by the time that my parents thought she would be fine moving out, they had housed her for close to half a year. My parents learned many new things about poverty by having her and her kids there for so long. One of the most significant was the severity of the mental/emotional/psychological strain that someone who is destitute is burdened with. My parents were able to find her a part-time job, they paid for everything, and cooked most of the meals. She struggled though to even just get up in the morning, let alone make it to work on time or even go at all. She lost the job. And sometimes all she could do was sit on the porch and chain smoke. About a half a year later my parents decided that she was probably well enough to be independent. They worked with some other families in the community to get her an apartment, a car, and a new job (good pay and part-time). She still has a lot of struggles, but can now fend for herself. I'm guessing some people who lift themselves from poverty are both lucky and have a psychological makeup which keeps them stable enough to do the necessary work in getting there. We either forget, ignore, or are ignorant of others that need a lot more hand-holding along the way.