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What a treat to read a well written piece based on decent research. It's a long read but well worth your time. Kudo's to the journalists who helped uncover it.

What a treat to read a well written piece based on decent research. It's a long read but well worth your time. Kudo's to the journalists who helped uncover it. And the 'coup of the century' is far from clickbait, it's definitionally warranted for what the CIA and BND did here. It's a little ironic as well, especially since the US is so keen on blocking Huawei over espionage concerns.

jvanderbot 7y ago
I take this plainly without irony as evidence for the restriction of foreign government-controlled infastructure in series with trusted communication.
tptacek 7y ago
The fact that the US has repeatedly succeeded in SIGINT capers like this makes their concern about Huawei kind of un-ironic, right?
- pjc50 7y ago
  Well, yes, but for third parties like the UK it makes it much more explicit that the choice is between the system that might be compromised by Huawei and the system that might be compromised by the US. Except the UK has its own little joint venture of security inspection of Huawei systems ...
  - OBFUSCATED 7y ago
    please expand..
    - HenryBemis 7y ago
      New account, 1 post.. I woulnd't answer "OBFUSCATED"'s question.. seems like he's already picked where to dig the ditch for the commenter. GCHQ? Something nastier?
      - OBFUSCATED 7y ago
        Guess again, actually this is the first time I had reason to register despite reading for a long time.
    - pjc50 7y ago
      It's not a secret: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/huawei-cyber-security-evaluation-centre-oversight-board-annual-report-2019 https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/huawei-cyber-secu... (On the other hand, it's not a very positive report! Lots of basic issues with build reproducibility and updates)
  - tsimionescu 7y ago
    Also, the UK is one of the Five Eyes nations, explicitly sharing intelligence data with the US and vice-versa. I'm sure they're not 100%open, but if there is any nation on Earth that would not overly fear US spying and prefer it to Chinese spying, it would be the UK.
  - vinay427 7y ago
    The alternatives that the US supports are European (Ericsson and Nokia, IIRC) so I see little benefit for at least EU countries regardless of their ties to the US to choose Huawei in this case.
- saber6 7y ago
  On the contrary. When you are a master of the dark arts, you can't help but see other practitioners around every corner.
- turk73 7y ago
  My take is that Huawei was bugging their hardware the same way the NSA does it and there can be only one. Plus, the US doesn't want Chinese bugged hardware.
FisDugthop 7y ago
Hypocritical, not ironic. You mean to highlight that the USA does not treat other sovereign states like the USA expects to be treated. There is no ironic contrast between the USA funding Crypto AG and China funding Huawei.
- tynpeddler 7y ago
  I think it's pretty clear that the US expects to be treated exactly like they've treated other nations.
noelsusman 7y ago
There's nothing ironic, weird, or surprising about the US wanting to stop other countries from doing to them what they do to other countries. It's hypocritical in some sense, mostly because the US tries to project itself as the good guys, but it's just basic international relations. That's how every country has always operated and will always operate.
- smolder 7y ago
  People seem to take for granted that things like that will never change, but always is a very long time --much longer than modern history. I hope you don't just expect/accept that we should kill ourselves off as opposed to reaching some kind of sustainability.
- dunkelheit 7y ago
  Right, the decision to avoid huawei is totally justified, but the hypocrisy is something to behold. Even here on HN, where people supposedly shouldn't be falling for propaganda so easily, there is a lot of indignation when e.g. the Chinese are caught doing something shady. If someone then points out that this is in some sense normal and US agencies are doing the same or worse stuff it is instantly dismissed as whataboutism.
  - eeZah7Ux 7y ago
    Even if something is "in some sense normal" it is still completely unacceptable.
- einpoklum 7y ago
  The US mostly tries to project itself as "the good guys" to its own inhabitants, and secondly to the local and international media. But in most of the world you are often faced with the business end of a US-operated or US-financed weapon.
  - jorblumesea 7y ago
    To be fair, it's a spectrum. The US has its share of bodies, but it also doesn't grind its citizens into a pulp with tanks when they protest.
navadr 7y ago
No, this is not original research, this isn't being uncovered now, and I'm not sure why this is being republished now in 2020. There have been detailed leaks since 1995 on cryptome.org and crypto mailing lists about CryptoAG, including details about the message format and the bits used to leak parts of the key (16 bit leak, IIRC). The CryptoAG story has tainted all Swiss-based crypto/security firms since 1994. [1] https://www.cryptomuseum.com/people/hans_buehler.htm https://www.cryptomuseum.com/people/hans_buehler.htm [2] Verschlüsselt, Der Fall Hans Bühler, ISBN 3-85932-141-2. 1994 - Book written by former CryptoAG employee Hans Buehler (1994).
- xhkkffbf 7y ago
  Exactly. The piece does give a hat tip to the good article written by their rival, the Baltimore SUN, more than 20 years ago. But that's buried near the bottom.
- maqp 7y ago
  The news is this: "CIA owned CryptoAG in collaboration with the intelligence establishment of West-Germany"
beerandt 7y ago
>based on decent research The story was handed to him by the Agency, or agents of. The only "research" seems to be calling the names in the story for fact checking, and wapo couldn't even determine if some of them were alive or dead. This story is dangerously close to being nothing but a CIA press release.
- ChrisCinelli 7y ago
  Ok, what so you think the purpose is?
  - beerandt 7y ago
    Specifics? No telling... But it is the CIA, so I'm assuming information was used as currency in paying off a favor to wapo. Plus they get to brag about a huge success story in times where the public has... doubts ... About the competency and value of the intelligence community in general. Without revealing much that want already public knowledge. Factor in the timing of FASA court investigations, the impeachment, and the AWS government cloud suit, and there are thousands of directions it could take.
Seenso 7y ago
> It's a little ironic as well, especially since the US is so keen on blocking Huawei over espionage concerns. It's not ironic to play a game to win. Saying this is ironic is like saying it was ironic for the US to try to keep the North Koreans/Chinese from winning the Korean War because the US had just won WWII.

jvanderbot 7y ago

I take this plainly without irony as evidence for the restriction of foreign government-controlled infastructure in series with trusted communication.

tptacek 7y ago

The fact that the US has repeatedly succeeded in SIGINT capers like this makes their concern about Huawei kind of un-ironic, right?

pjc50 7y ago
Well, yes, but for third parties like the UK it makes it much more explicit that the choice is between the system that might be compromised by Huawei and the system that might be compromised by the US. Except the UK has its own little joint venture of security inspection of Huawei systems ...
- OBFUSCATED 7y ago
  please expand..
  - HenryBemis 7y ago
    New account, 1 post.. I woulnd't answer "OBFUSCATED"'s question.. seems like he's already picked where to dig the ditch for the commenter. GCHQ? Something nastier?
    - OBFUSCATED 7y ago
      Guess again, actually this is the first time I had reason to register despite reading for a long time.
  - pjc50 7y ago
    It's not a secret: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/huawei-cyber-security-evaluation-centre-oversight-board-annual-report-2019 https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/huawei-cyber-secu... (On the other hand, it's not a very positive report! Lots of basic issues with build reproducibility and updates)
- tsimionescu 7y ago
  Also, the UK is one of the Five Eyes nations, explicitly sharing intelligence data with the US and vice-versa. I'm sure they're not 100%open, but if there is any nation on Earth that would not overly fear US spying and prefer it to Chinese spying, it would be the UK.
- vinay427 7y ago
  The alternatives that the US supports are European (Ericsson and Nokia, IIRC) so I see little benefit for at least EU countries regardless of their ties to the US to choose Huawei in this case.
saber6 7y ago
On the contrary. When you are a master of the dark arts, you can't help but see other practitioners around every corner.
turk73 7y ago
My take is that Huawei was bugging their hardware the same way the NSA does it and there can be only one. Plus, the US doesn't want Chinese bugged hardware.

FisDugthop 7y ago

Hypocritical, not ironic. You mean to highlight that the USA does not treat other sovereign states like the USA expects to be treated. There is no ironic contrast between the USA funding Crypto AG and China funding Huawei.

tynpeddler 7y ago
I think it's pretty clear that the US expects to be treated exactly like they've treated other nations.

noelsusman 7y ago

There's nothing ironic, weird, or surprising about the US wanting to stop other countries from doing to them what they do to other countries. It's hypocritical in some sense, mostly because the US tries to project itself as the good guys, but it's just basic international relations. That's how every country has always operated and will always operate.

smolder 7y ago
People seem to take for granted that things like that will never change, but always is a very long time --much longer than modern history. I hope you don't just expect/accept that we should kill ourselves off as opposed to reaching some kind of sustainability.
dunkelheit 7y ago
Right, the decision to avoid huawei is totally justified, but the hypocrisy is something to behold. Even here on HN, where people supposedly shouldn't be falling for propaganda so easily, there is a lot of indignation when e.g. the Chinese are caught doing something shady. If someone then points out that this is in some sense normal and US agencies are doing the same or worse stuff it is instantly dismissed as whataboutism.
- eeZah7Ux 7y ago
  Even if something is "in some sense normal" it is still completely unacceptable.
einpoklum 7y ago
The US mostly tries to project itself as "the good guys" to its own inhabitants, and secondly to the local and international media. But in most of the world you are often faced with the business end of a US-operated or US-financed weapon.
- jorblumesea 7y ago
  To be fair, it's a spectrum. The US has its share of bodies, but it also doesn't grind its citizens into a pulp with tanks when they protest.

navadr 7y ago

No, this is not original research, this isn't being uncovered now, and I'm not sure why this is being republished now in 2020. There have been detailed leaks since 1995 on cryptome.org and crypto mailing lists about CryptoAG, including details about the message format and the bits used to leak parts of the key (16 bit leak, IIRC). The CryptoAG story has tainted all Swiss-based crypto/security firms since 1994. [1] https://www.cryptomuseum.com/people/hans_buehler.htm https://www.cryptomuseum.com/people/hans_buehler.htm [2] Verschlüsselt, Der Fall Hans Bühler, ISBN 3-85932-141-2. 1994 - Book written by former CryptoAG employee Hans Buehler (1994).

xhkkffbf 7y ago
Exactly. The piece does give a hat tip to the good article written by their rival, the Baltimore SUN, more than 20 years ago. But that's buried near the bottom.
maqp 7y ago
The news is this: "CIA owned CryptoAG in collaboration with the intelligence establishment of West-Germany"

beerandt 7y ago

>based on decent research The story was handed to him by the Agency, or agents of. The only "research" seems to be calling the names in the story for fact checking, and wapo couldn't even determine if some of them were alive or dead. This story is dangerously close to being nothing but a CIA press release.

ChrisCinelli 7y ago
Ok, what so you think the purpose is?
- beerandt 7y ago
  Specifics? No telling... But it is the CIA, so I'm assuming information was used as currency in paying off a favor to wapo. Plus they get to brag about a huge success story in times where the public has... doubts ... About the competency and value of the intelligence community in general. Without revealing much that want already public knowledge. Factor in the timing of FASA court investigations, the impeachment, and the AWS government cloud suit, and there are thousands of directions it could take.

Seenso 7y ago

> It's a little ironic as well, especially since the US is so keen on blocking Huawei over espionage concerns. It's not ironic to play a game to win. Saying this is ironic is like saying it was ironic for the US to try to keep the North Koreans/Chinese from winning the Korean War because the US had just won WWII.