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That's very frustrating when arguing against blockchain/cryptocurrencies on the internet (and even in places like HN). For every blockchain enthusiast that has

by simias 7y ago

That's very frustrating when arguing against blockchain/cryptocurrencies on the internet (and even in places like HN). For every blockchain enthusiast that has a good understanding of the technology and interesting arguments you have a dozen of people who have barely any understanding of how it works and what it can really do and will spew all sorts nonsense, sometimes even self-contradicting themselves in the process. I suppose that some of them argue in bad faith because they're invested in the technology and want to get rich. This particular issue of the privacy of the blockchain is one of the best examples, I very commonly see discussions in CC circles where it's both argued that blockchain respects its user's privacy and at the same time that we shouldn't be worried about bad actors abusing an anonymous, unregulated system to fuel corruption or highly illegal stuff because "everything is public on the blockchain, it's completely transparent". I guess that's why many of them have this obsession about quantum resistance, there's clearly a state superposition at play in there somewhere. An other favorite of mine is "what do you mean cryptocurrency is unpractical? I use it to pay everyday using <centrally operated credit card service provided by a centrally operated cryptocurrency exchange using an off-chain ledger that may or may not eventually be settled in bulk on the blockchain>". Sounds like Visa with extra steps to me.

SideburnsOfDoom 7y ago
> I suppose that some of them argue in bad faith because they're invested in the technology and want to get rich. And some of them argue in what they would call good faith, for they have drunk the koolaide, want to believe, for this allows them to believe that they hold a valuable asset, were clever in getting in early, etc. "It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it."
throw0101a 7y ago
> ... you have a dozen of people who have barely any understanding of how it works and what it can really do ... NIST has a really good document, Blockchain Technology Overview (NISTIR 8202): * https://csrc.nist.gov/publications/detail/nistir/8202/final https://csrc.nist.gov/publications/detail/nistir/8202/final Chapter 8, Application Considerations, has a good yes/no flowchart that asks a series of question before saying "maybe Blockchain" * Do you need a shared, consistent data store? * Does more than one entity need to contribute data? * Data records, once written, are never updated or deleted? * Sensitive identifiers WILL NOT be written to the data store? * Are the entities with write access having a hard time deciding who should be in control of the data store? * Do you want a tamperproof log of all writes to the data store? If the answer to any of the above questions is "no", NIST suggests something else.
- ms4720 7y ago
  Any other good nist publications you recommend? IT or tech related?
  - throw0101a 7y ago
    It's worth just browsing their "SP" series and seeing what interests you: * https://csrc.nist.gov/publications/sp https://csrc.nist.gov/publications/sp The NISTIR series also worth perusing.
  - m-watson 7y ago
    NIST Cybersecurity Framework is a good collection of resources. https://www.nist.gov/cyberframework https://www.nist.gov/cyberframework
- adhoc32 7y ago
  * Do you have the resources to secure the network using POW mining? This is a big "no" for every project excluding bitcoin.
bitcoinbutter 7y ago
Yes, the people arguing that blockchain has it figured out for regular transactions are fools. Blockchain has a long way to go and many serious challenges to overcome before it can compete with payment networks like Visa. It does a disservice to say the technology is already there, because it suggests that the current version is as good as it gets. To me, blockchain or something that incorporates its best features (decentralization, immutability) will need to process transactions for: - Fractions of a cent - Confirm in seconds So far that is not possible, and there is no clear way to achieve it, but with blockchain as a base there is no doubt that it will eventually be done. At that point, if you have not sacrificed decentralization or immutability, you have something truly amazing.
- invisiblerobot 7y ago
  aren't you describing litecoin?
- thinkmassive 7y ago
  You’re describing the Lightning Network. There’s still a lot of room for improvement before it’s suitable for non-enthusiasts, but it works and has been live for well over a year now.
  - spookthesunset 7y ago
    Ah yes, LN will has been poised to save bitcoin for the last decade now. The one little secret to bitcoin investors don’t want you to know! Want bitcoin to be a success? Don’t use it! Too bad it is still vaporware.
    - thinkmassive 7y ago
      You're either misinformed or have an agenda (based on the snark, my guess is the latter), but LN is far from vaporware... LND 0.4-beta was released March 15, 2018. Today there are 11k nodes, 35k channels, $9,000,000 network capacity: https://1ml.com/statistics https://1ml.com/statistics
- 7y ago
asveikau 7y ago
I think this is representative of a general case of many internet subcultures with a fanatical following. In many of these communities you are deeply into thing X, all problems are always solved by more thing X. Hostility arises to any suggestion that thing X is not a solution to any given problem. Obviously this has nothing to do with how cool, interesting, or beneficial thing X may be. They just lose sight of the fact that there is not really a thing that literally solves all problems and never has any downsides. Seen it pretty commonly on reddit for various topics.
- the_gastropod 7y ago
  I'd never connected the dots, but I think you're right. Most developer crypto zealots I know are also zealots about things like: micro services, static typing, the brave browser, and <front-end frameworks du jour>.
blueprint 7y ago
> where it's both argued that blockchain respects its user's privacy and at the same time that we shouldn't be worried about bad actors Bitcoin is not remotely private. Monero is.

by simias 7y ago

SideburnsOfDoom 7y ago

> I suppose that some of them argue in bad faith because they're invested in the technology and want to get rich. And some of them argue in what they would call good faith, for they have drunk the koolaide, want to believe, for this allows them to believe that they hold a valuable asset, were clever in getting in early, etc. "It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it."

throw0101a 7y ago

> ... you have a dozen of people who have barely any understanding of how it works and what it can really do ... NIST has a really good document, Blockchain Technology Overview (NISTIR 8202): * https://csrc.nist.gov/publications/detail/nistir/8202/final https://csrc.nist.gov/publications/detail/nistir/8202/final Chapter 8, Application Considerations, has a good yes/no flowchart that asks a series of question before saying "maybe Blockchain" * Do you need a shared, consistent data store? * Does more than one entity need to contribute data? * Data records, once written, are never updated or deleted? * Sensitive identifiers WILL NOT be written to the data store? * Are the entities with write access having a hard time deciding who should be in control of the data store? * Do you want a tamperproof log of all writes to the data store? If the answer to any of the above questions is "no", NIST suggests something else.

ms4720 7y ago
Any other good nist publications you recommend? IT or tech related?
- throw0101a 7y ago
  It's worth just browsing their "SP" series and seeing what interests you: * https://csrc.nist.gov/publications/sp https://csrc.nist.gov/publications/sp The NISTIR series also worth perusing.
- m-watson 7y ago
  NIST Cybersecurity Framework is a good collection of resources. https://www.nist.gov/cyberframework https://www.nist.gov/cyberframework
adhoc32 7y ago
* Do you have the resources to secure the network using POW mining? This is a big "no" for every project excluding bitcoin.

bitcoinbutter 7y ago

Yes, the people arguing that blockchain has it figured out for regular transactions are fools. Blockchain has a long way to go and many serious challenges to overcome before it can compete with payment networks like Visa. It does a disservice to say the technology is already there, because it suggests that the current version is as good as it gets. To me, blockchain or something that incorporates its best features (decentralization, immutability) will need to process transactions for: - Fractions of a cent - Confirm in seconds So far that is not possible, and there is no clear way to achieve it, but with blockchain as a base there is no doubt that it will eventually be done. At that point, if you have not sacrificed decentralization or immutability, you have something truly amazing.

invisiblerobot 7y ago
aren't you describing litecoin?
thinkmassive 7y ago
You’re describing the Lightning Network. There’s still a lot of room for improvement before it’s suitable for non-enthusiasts, but it works and has been live for well over a year now.
- spookthesunset 7y ago
  Ah yes, LN will has been poised to save bitcoin for the last decade now. The one little secret to bitcoin investors don’t want you to know! Want bitcoin to be a success? Don’t use it! Too bad it is still vaporware.
  - thinkmassive 7y ago
    You're either misinformed or have an agenda (based on the snark, my guess is the latter), but LN is far from vaporware... LND 0.4-beta was released March 15, 2018. Today there are 11k nodes, 35k channels, $9,000,000 network capacity: https://1ml.com/statistics https://1ml.com/statistics
7y ago

asveikau 7y ago

I think this is representative of a general case of many internet subcultures with a fanatical following. In many of these communities you are deeply into thing X, all problems are always solved by more thing X. Hostility arises to any suggestion that thing X is not a solution to any given problem. Obviously this has nothing to do with how cool, interesting, or beneficial thing X may be. They just lose sight of the fact that there is not really a thing that literally solves all problems and never has any downsides. Seen it pretty commonly on reddit for various topics.

the_gastropod 7y ago
I'd never connected the dots, but I think you're right. Most developer crypto zealots I know are also zealots about things like: micro services, static typing, the brave browser, and <front-end frameworks du jour>.

blueprint 7y ago

> where it's both argued that blockchain respects its user's privacy and at the same time that we shouldn't be worried about bad actors Bitcoin is not remotely private. Monero is.