5 ms·

I find these huge government projects completely insane. Could they not build short distances of track and get trains running on them to derisk this whole thing

I find these huge government projects completely insane. Could they not build short distances of track and get trains running on them to derisk this whole thing? Then each piece can be managed at a reasonable, human understandable cost.

pintxo 7y ago
This project is split in two (three separate lines). Not sure it makes sense to have high speed rail for a shorter route than London - Birmingham.
- youngtaff 7y ago
  It's about capacity, moving high speed intercity trains onto their own lines frees capacity for goods trains and local trains Midlands Connect have some useful details on how just the London to Birmingham link improves local services around Birmingham https://www.midlandsconnect.uk/publications/hs2-released-capacity/ https://www.midlandsconnect.uk/publications/hs2-released-cap...
  - pintxo 7y ago
    No disagreement here.
bobthepanda 7y ago
The HS2's main rationale has been for capacity relief, to move intercity trains off of slower winding tracks and use that free capacity for more commuter services. So it won't be very useful unless it takes some significant amount of intercity services off of the existing rail network, and London-Birmingham isn't even a particularly long route.
- andy_ppp 7y ago
  Sure but it’s the most complicated part, why do that bit first? Prove everything with Leeds - Manchester first, or an even shorter route...
  - Symbiote 7y ago
    London to Birmingham will have more usage, so more revenue from tickets. The technology doesn't need proving, plenty is built already.
  - kingosticks 7y ago
    The extra capacity is most urgently required in and around London. The scheme needs to deliver the relief in these areas ASAP, I don't think there's much to prove outside of that so I don't think doing other sections first makes sense. Edit, more background on the extra capacity: https://www.ianvisits.co.uk/blog/2019/08/20/taking-a-look-at-hs2s-huge-old-oak-common-station/ https://www.ianvisits.co.uk/blog/2019/08/20/taking-a-look-at...
  - bobthepanda 7y ago
    Leeds and Manchester are separated by the Pennines, which are a challenging geography to build through. The capacity issue is not between cities in the north, anyways; the capacity issue is towards London.
    - iso947 7y ago
      There is massive capacity problems in Manchester and Leeds and indeed the entire liverpool-Leeds corridor NPR is sorely needed for that. There’s also big capacity issues from Manchester to Stockport and Wolves-Coventry which HS2 tackles directly (as well as rugby-London) There’s a good argument that rather than the east side of the pennies, driving HS2 on to Leeds from Manchester, and adding a branch to Liverpool, would give better value for money. I don’t know enough about the capacity issues from Leeds to Wakefield and Doncaster to comment on that side.
    - gorgoiler 7y ago
      Very interesting. If you had a link to some good capacity information, that would also be really good to read.
      - UglyToad 7y ago
        This doesn't go into much numerical information which is buried in reports but it's a good high level summary https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/hs2-logistics-financial-benefit-controversy-a8937936.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/hs2-logistic...
TheOtherHobbes 7y ago
That's not how rail works - never mind high speed rail. The rails are the easy part. There's also signalling and monitoring, power gen/distribution, train stabling and maintenance, and all kinds of other infrastructure. You can't build it piecemeal without incurring huge extra costs. The insane part with HS2 is the relatively small economic benefit, and the fact that the price is going to spiral out of control even more than it has already. The UK badly needs an integrated transport policy, making connections between all modes - trains, busses, airports, ferries, roads, and so on. Currently all the modes compete with each other. And that's a huge problem. Instead we get a project that might have been progressive in the 19th century but makes no economic sense at all in the 21st. For the same price as HS2 the UK could have hugely improved broadband everywhere, improved rail - especially electrification - and seed funding for new businesses everywhere, especially the North.
- gorgoiler 7y ago
  Your broadband point is a really good one and very interesting. Do you have a rough breakdown of what it would cost, and what could be provided? Is this gigabit fibre to every home type of thing, or a hybrid, and what are the costs for different broadband options?
- onion2k 7y ago
  For the same price as HS2 the UK could have hugely improved broadband everywhere, improved rail - especially electrification - and seed funding for new businesses everywhere, especially the North. The cost of bus travel in the UK is currently £3bn/year. For the same price as HS2 we could have about 20 years of completely free bus travel nation-wide. There are a lot of things we could do with £100bn that would be better than reducing the time it takes to get to Birmingham by 20 minutes.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - merrvk 7y ago
    >There are a lot of things we could do with £100bn that would be better than reducing the time it takes to get to Birmingham by 20 minutes. Its really alot more than that, inform yourself first before making sweeping statements. https://www.ianvisits.co.uk/blog/2019/08/20/taking-a-look-at-hs2s-huge-old-oak-common-station/ https://www.ianvisits.co.uk/blog/2019/08/20/taking-a-look-at...
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]

pintxo 7y ago

This project is split in two (three separate lines). Not sure it makes sense to have high speed rail for a shorter route than London - Birmingham.

youngtaff 7y ago
It's about capacity, moving high speed intercity trains onto their own lines frees capacity for goods trains and local trains Midlands Connect have some useful details on how just the London to Birmingham link improves local services around Birmingham https://www.midlandsconnect.uk/publications/hs2-released-capacity/ https://www.midlandsconnect.uk/publications/hs2-released-cap...
- pintxo 7y ago
  No disagreement here.

bobthepanda 7y ago

The HS2's main rationale has been for capacity relief, to move intercity trains off of slower winding tracks and use that free capacity for more commuter services. So it won't be very useful unless it takes some significant amount of intercity services off of the existing rail network, and London-Birmingham isn't even a particularly long route.

andy_ppp 7y ago
Sure but it’s the most complicated part, why do that bit first? Prove everything with Leeds - Manchester first, or an even shorter route...
- Symbiote 7y ago
  London to Birmingham will have more usage, so more revenue from tickets. The technology doesn't need proving, plenty is built already.
- kingosticks 7y ago
  The extra capacity is most urgently required in and around London. The scheme needs to deliver the relief in these areas ASAP, I don't think there's much to prove outside of that so I don't think doing other sections first makes sense. Edit, more background on the extra capacity: https://www.ianvisits.co.uk/blog/2019/08/20/taking-a-look-at-hs2s-huge-old-oak-common-station/ https://www.ianvisits.co.uk/blog/2019/08/20/taking-a-look-at...
- bobthepanda 7y ago
  Leeds and Manchester are separated by the Pennines, which are a challenging geography to build through. The capacity issue is not between cities in the north, anyways; the capacity issue is towards London.
  - iso947 7y ago
    There is massive capacity problems in Manchester and Leeds and indeed the entire liverpool-Leeds corridor NPR is sorely needed for that. There’s also big capacity issues from Manchester to Stockport and Wolves-Coventry which HS2 tackles directly (as well as rugby-London) There’s a good argument that rather than the east side of the pennies, driving HS2 on to Leeds from Manchester, and adding a branch to Liverpool, would give better value for money. I don’t know enough about the capacity issues from Leeds to Wakefield and Doncaster to comment on that side.
  - gorgoiler 7y ago
    Very interesting. If you had a link to some good capacity information, that would also be really good to read.
    - UglyToad 7y ago
      This doesn't go into much numerical information which is buried in reports but it's a good high level summary https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/hs2-logistics-financial-benefit-controversy-a8937936.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/hs2-logistic...

TheOtherHobbes 7y ago

That's not how rail works - never mind high speed rail. The rails are the easy part. There's also signalling and monitoring, power gen/distribution, train stabling and maintenance, and all kinds of other infrastructure. You can't build it piecemeal without incurring huge extra costs. The insane part with HS2 is the relatively small economic benefit, and the fact that the price is going to spiral out of control even more than it has already. The UK badly needs an integrated transport policy, making connections between all modes - trains, busses, airports, ferries, roads, and so on. Currently all the modes compete with each other. And that's a huge problem. Instead we get a project that might have been progressive in the 19th century but makes no economic sense at all in the 21st. For the same price as HS2 the UK could have hugely improved broadband everywhere, improved rail - especially electrification - and seed funding for new businesses everywhere, especially the North.

gorgoiler 7y ago
Your broadband point is a really good one and very interesting. Do you have a rough breakdown of what it would cost, and what could be provided? Is this gigabit fibre to every home type of thing, or a hybrid, and what are the costs for different broadband options?
onion2k 7y ago
For the same price as HS2 the UK could have hugely improved broadband everywhere, improved rail - especially electrification - and seed funding for new businesses everywhere, especially the North. The cost of bus travel in the UK is currently £3bn/year. For the same price as HS2 we could have about 20 years of completely free bus travel nation-wide. There are a lot of things we could do with £100bn that would be better than reducing the time it takes to get to Birmingham by 20 minutes.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- merrvk 7y ago
  >There are a lot of things we could do with £100bn that would be better than reducing the time it takes to get to Birmingham by 20 minutes. Its really alot more than that, inform yourself first before making sweeping statements. https://www.ianvisits.co.uk/blog/2019/08/20/taking-a-look-at-hs2s-huge-old-oak-common-station/ https://www.ianvisits.co.uk/blog/2019/08/20/taking-a-look-at...

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]