4 ms·

No "office politics" is the result of having no possibility of career advancement, which is probably not a good thing. When nobody has any path to promotion the

No "office politics" is the result of having no possibility of career advancement, which is probably not a good thing. When nobody has any path to promotion then nobody will bother playing games to get promoted.

jolmg 7y ago
I think it's just that blue-collar work is naturally more visible. Quality of work (not to mention quantity) can be appreciated with just a few glances of the work. So, it's not that there's no possibility of career advancement. It's just that "office politics" is not as needed. That's my perspective, anyway.
- lazyasciiart 7y ago
  Career advancement from welder to senior welder, yes. To go from laborer to site manager, that's not the only thing that needs evaluating. If nobody is looking at your people skills, then you probably don't have that second promotion available.
  - jolmg 7y ago
    I can see people not wanting that second promotion. It sounds like it would be at least partly a different job, requiring orthogonal skills like you mentioned. I would imagine one can stay a welder and improve to a point where they would earn even more than site managers. Like, there's welders that can weld garden gates, then there's welders that can work on underwater pipes, then I imagine organizations like NASA need even further skilled welders. I don't think there's ever a need to transition to managing subordinates.
    - CaptArmchair 7y ago
      That's exactly how this works. A career can move horizontally or vertically. What most people forget is that "moving up the ladder" isn't a promotion: it's a fundamental career change that requires vastly different skills. Being a fine engineer or technician doesn't make you fit for a leadership position where people skills make all the difference. And once you're in such a role, your operational experience will go stale after a while since you can't spend vast amounts of time deep diving in concrete technical problems. Your job is to manage the overall picture and delegate. Here's a nice blogpost from Charity Majors (Honeycomb) about this exact conundrum: https://charity.wtf/2019/01/04/engineering-management-the-pendulum-or-the-ladder/ https://charity.wtf/2019/01/04/engineering-management-the-pe... The crux to this is that it's actually fine to not climb the ladder. Like you said, you can perfectly hone your skills over years, establish a name for yourself and become a specialist who gets paid more then their boss Doing that still requires a due acumen to manage your own career as if it were a personal business. Which means scouting for opportunities that help you earn more while allowing you to work on new challenging projects that help you expand your technical experience. Hence why hopping jobs isn't necessarily a bad thing for your career. Of course, that's not what employers want or need. That's why they play the loyalty or career card. And why this myth "climbing the ladder is a good thing" persists. Let's not forget, most people stick to their jobs not because they are particularly fond of their jobs, but because of household debt (children, car, house, student loans,...) or because there simply aren't attractive alternatives close by and moving / migrating is too expensive (emotionally, culturally, socially,...). Finally, office politics and workplace culture are an aggregate and a compound sum, not just of organizational policies, but also of what employees bring to the table, where they are individually in their lives, what they need now and in the future, and which cost opportunity trade offs they are willing / choosing to make.
    - dsfyu404ed 7y ago
      >there's welders that can weld garden gates, then there's welders that can work on underwater pipes Like any other blue collar skill welders are primarily compensated for the skill/experience required to do their job and the amount of inconvenience, discomfort and/or danger that comes from the setting in which their job takes place Welding fancy alloys for pressure vessels takes more skill and is therefore compensated better. Welding together railings is much easier with much looser quality control so it's not compensated as well because more people can do it. Doing either of those things in a heated and air conditioned shop is going to pay a complete pittance compared to doing them in the mud in the middle of nowhere, underwater, in a confined space or an otherwise physically demanding and/or dangerous environment.
  - tremon 7y ago
    To go from laborer to site manager, that's not the only thing that needs evaluating True, that's where the office politics comes in.
  - dsfyu404ed 7y ago
    If you want substantial career advancement in any blue collar field (without dramatically changing what you do or where/how you do it) then the path you take is doing it under your own name and eventually hiring employees. You can progress much further up the income ladder in white collar fields my moving into management. The career paths are not analogous.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
throwawayhhakdl 7y ago
I disagree entirely. Office politics were rampant in companies I’ve seen that had little to no advancement. Because the only way to go up was effectively at the expense of someone else leaving, or someone else not get promoted too. Environments where your success doesn’t mean someone else loses are extremely positive.

jolmg 7y ago

I think it's just that blue-collar work is naturally more visible. Quality of work (not to mention quantity) can be appreciated with just a few glances of the work. So, it's not that there's no possibility of career advancement. It's just that "office politics" is not as needed. That's my perspective, anyway.

lazyasciiart 7y ago
Career advancement from welder to senior welder, yes. To go from laborer to site manager, that's not the only thing that needs evaluating. If nobody is looking at your people skills, then you probably don't have that second promotion available.
- jolmg 7y ago
  I can see people not wanting that second promotion. It sounds like it would be at least partly a different job, requiring orthogonal skills like you mentioned. I would imagine one can stay a welder and improve to a point where they would earn even more than site managers. Like, there's welders that can weld garden gates, then there's welders that can work on underwater pipes, then I imagine organizations like NASA need even further skilled welders. I don't think there's ever a need to transition to managing subordinates.
  - CaptArmchair 7y ago
    That's exactly how this works. A career can move horizontally or vertically. What most people forget is that "moving up the ladder" isn't a promotion: it's a fundamental career change that requires vastly different skills. Being a fine engineer or technician doesn't make you fit for a leadership position where people skills make all the difference. And once you're in such a role, your operational experience will go stale after a while since you can't spend vast amounts of time deep diving in concrete technical problems. Your job is to manage the overall picture and delegate. Here's a nice blogpost from Charity Majors (Honeycomb) about this exact conundrum: https://charity.wtf/2019/01/04/engineering-management-the-pendulum-or-the-ladder/ https://charity.wtf/2019/01/04/engineering-management-the-pe... The crux to this is that it's actually fine to not climb the ladder. Like you said, you can perfectly hone your skills over years, establish a name for yourself and become a specialist who gets paid more then their boss Doing that still requires a due acumen to manage your own career as if it were a personal business. Which means scouting for opportunities that help you earn more while allowing you to work on new challenging projects that help you expand your technical experience. Hence why hopping jobs isn't necessarily a bad thing for your career. Of course, that's not what employers want or need. That's why they play the loyalty or career card. And why this myth "climbing the ladder is a good thing" persists. Let's not forget, most people stick to their jobs not because they are particularly fond of their jobs, but because of household debt (children, car, house, student loans,...) or because there simply aren't attractive alternatives close by and moving / migrating is too expensive (emotionally, culturally, socially,...). Finally, office politics and workplace culture are an aggregate and a compound sum, not just of organizational policies, but also of what employees bring to the table, where they are individually in their lives, what they need now and in the future, and which cost opportunity trade offs they are willing / choosing to make.
  - dsfyu404ed 7y ago
    >there's welders that can weld garden gates, then there's welders that can work on underwater pipes Like any other blue collar skill welders are primarily compensated for the skill/experience required to do their job and the amount of inconvenience, discomfort and/or danger that comes from the setting in which their job takes place Welding fancy alloys for pressure vessels takes more skill and is therefore compensated better. Welding together railings is much easier with much looser quality control so it's not compensated as well because more people can do it. Doing either of those things in a heated and air conditioned shop is going to pay a complete pittance compared to doing them in the mud in the middle of nowhere, underwater, in a confined space or an otherwise physically demanding and/or dangerous environment.
- tremon 7y ago
  To go from laborer to site manager, that's not the only thing that needs evaluating True, that's where the office politics comes in.
- dsfyu404ed 7y ago
  If you want substantial career advancement in any blue collar field (without dramatically changing what you do or where/how you do it) then the path you take is doing it under your own name and eventually hiring employees. You can progress much further up the income ladder in white collar fields my moving into management. The career paths are not analogous.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]

throwawayhhakdl 7y ago

I disagree entirely. Office politics were rampant in companies I’ve seen that had little to no advancement. Because the only way to go up was effectively at the expense of someone else leaving, or someone else not get promoted too. Environments where your success doesn’t mean someone else loses are extremely positive.