4 ms·

> If durable, maintainable, and resilient are your number one priority, maybe you want a desktop. It is trivial to open up the case and replace or upgrade compo

by fao_ 7y ago

> If durable, maintainable, and resilient are your number one priority, maybe you want a desktop. It is trivial to open up the case and replace or upgrade components. I'm both confused and utterly baffled about why you think taking a full-blown desktop computer to conferences, hackathons, cafés, work, etc. is even an option. It feels like a common response on hacker news, and hell, even in developer circles in general at the moment, is the equivalent of: "I want X, Y, and Z, and we used to make things that satisfy those requirements, and we don't anymore. Why is that?" "You don't want Z, you want Q, which does X and Y" where Q is something that makes the whole point of X and Y impractical for the person's use-case. To belabour the point: I don't see how you get from "A slightly less-thin laptop that has some room for upgrades" to "A desktop computer that requires a separate monitor, a stable and available power supply, a table, and associated peripherals" Thinkpads used to be designed in a way that would allow upgrading and replacing of common components. Hell, it used to be the case that IBM/Lenovo had a line of thinkpads that were specifically designed for this sort of upgrading. Why aren't they still? There is a market for this (one only has to look at the prices and the demand of second-hand Thinkpads of that variety), the problem is that not only did laptop manufacturers realise that not allowing users to upgrade components, means that they can charge them again for a more powerful laptop in a few years time, but laptop manufacturers are trying to compete on Apple's "we have the thinnest machine in the world" front, for whatever reason.

bluGill 7y ago
It is the old 3 legged triangle in a different context: fast, cheap, right: pick two.
- fao_ 7y ago
  I disagree, given that as I mentioned, those machines were manufactured at some point in time, in the last decade. From Thinkwiki[0]: As successor of the 600 series, the T series became IBM mobile productivity line. Usually leading the ThinkPad range in technology, innovation and price, the T series was intended for the travelling businessman - comparatively more stylish, functional, and rugged machines; and easy to disassemble for repair or upgrades." The last T-series Thinkpad laptop with non-soldered ram was manufactured in January 2018[1]. [0]: https://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/ThinkPad_series https://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/ThinkPad_series [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ThinkPad_T_series#Specifications https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ThinkPad_T_series#Specificatio...
  - wtallis 7y ago
    > The last T-series Thinkpad laptop with non-soldered ram was manufactured in January 2018[1]. You're misreading. Plenty of recent and current models have some RAM soldered, plus a SODIMM slot for further RAM expansion.
Spooky23 7y ago
> Thinkpads used to be designed in a way that would allow upgrading and replacing of common components. Hell, it used to be the case that IBM/Lenovo had a line of thinkpads that were specifically designed for this sort of upgrading. Why aren't they still? There is a market for this No, there isn't. The ASP of a computer is about $600. The ThinkPad T and X series of old were usually 2-4x that, and were targeted at high end users. It's like the market for used Mercedes-Benz sedans -- it's a niche of a niche. They compete with Apple because their devices looked like shit compared to Apple, and highend sales tanked. Apple goes for thin and light because it drives sales and margin. Apple makes a 25-30% margin on laptops. Dell makes like 3-5% on most hardware, and government procurement contracts often have them selling devices at negative (up to -4%) margin in exchange for rebates from Intel or AMD or services revenue. At volume, Dell/HP/etc makes more money putting asset stickers on computers than the computer.
- fao_ 7y ago
  You might be right! I don't admit to knowing the exact market dynamics in play here. That being said, it feels like your comment is missing the forest for one particular (perhaps rotten) tree. Firstly, addressing your argument: A lot of people shell over 1000$ and weeks of time on Thinkpad reworks that reuse older chassis but have upgraded components (See: The X210[0], the X62[1], the T430 modders[2], etc.[3][4]), not only is money clearly not an issue in this particular niché, the look of the machine isn't either. Secondly: Regardless of the exact dynamics in play, the parent post completely spectacularly missed the point of the article in question. [0]: https://geoff.greer.fm/2019/03/04/thinkpad-x210/ https://geoff.greer.fm/2019/03/04/thinkpad-x210/ [1]: https://geoff.greer.fm/2017/07/16/thinkpad-x62/ https://geoff.greer.fm/2017/07/16/thinkpad-x62/ [2]: https://medium.com/@n4ru/the-definitive-t430-modding-guide-3dff3f6a8e2e https://medium.com/@n4ru/the-definitive-t430-modding-guide-3... [3]: https://www.reddit.com/r/thinkpad/wiki/index https://www.reddit.com/r/thinkpad/wiki/index [4]: https://www.bobble.tech/free-stuff/used-thinkpad-buyers-guide https://www.bobble.tech/free-stuff/used-thinkpad-buyers-guid...
  - Spooky23 7y ago
    I definitely think there are customers — I carried a rebuilt T5xx for a few years! The issue is the market changed about 8-10 years ago. I used to buy 20-30k desktops a year. 80% were the shitty commodity HP/Dell (example would be the HP Probook middle of the line). 20% were nicer devices like Thinkpads. The change was that high end use cases vanished as Intel started failing, so we’d buy more memory instead of a better device. The laptop use cases that remain all went Mac. Nobody cares about the quality or repairability of the average device. Service is outsourced and dominated by labor cost, a Dell PC tech is billed out as low as $25/visit and just replaces boxes. A competent tech who can rebuild computers will cost like $90k (in an out of the way place) and only be able to service 2-4 devices a day. You’re looking at 5-7x the cost for a benefit that nobody cares about. The market wants cheap commodity. There are probably 250k enthusiasts who would give a hoot about PCs, but their number is shrinking and the market has consolidated into a couple of big players, who won’t make enough money to invest in the market.

by fao_ 7y ago

bluGill 7y ago

It is the old 3 legged triangle in a different context: fast, cheap, right: pick two.

fao_ 7y ago
I disagree, given that as I mentioned, those machines were manufactured at some point in time, in the last decade. From Thinkwiki[0]: As successor of the 600 series, the T series became IBM mobile productivity line. Usually leading the ThinkPad range in technology, innovation and price, the T series was intended for the travelling businessman - comparatively more stylish, functional, and rugged machines; and easy to disassemble for repair or upgrades." The last T-series Thinkpad laptop with non-soldered ram was manufactured in January 2018[1]. [0]: https://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/ThinkPad_series https://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/ThinkPad_series [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ThinkPad_T_series#Specifications https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ThinkPad_T_series#Specificatio...
- wtallis 7y ago
  > The last T-series Thinkpad laptop with non-soldered ram was manufactured in January 2018[1]. You're misreading. Plenty of recent and current models have some RAM soldered, plus a SODIMM slot for further RAM expansion.

Spooky23 7y ago

> Thinkpads used to be designed in a way that would allow upgrading and replacing of common components. Hell, it used to be the case that IBM/Lenovo had a line of thinkpads that were specifically designed for this sort of upgrading. Why aren't they still? There is a market for this No, there isn't. The ASP of a computer is about $600. The ThinkPad T and X series of old were usually 2-4x that, and were targeted at high end users. It's like the market for used Mercedes-Benz sedans -- it's a niche of a niche. They compete with Apple because their devices looked like shit compared to Apple, and highend sales tanked. Apple goes for thin and light because it drives sales and margin. Apple makes a 25-30% margin on laptops. Dell makes like 3-5% on most hardware, and government procurement contracts often have them selling devices at negative (up to -4%) margin in exchange for rebates from Intel or AMD or services revenue. At volume, Dell/HP/etc makes more money putting asset stickers on computers than the computer.

fao_ 7y ago
You might be right! I don't admit to knowing the exact market dynamics in play here. That being said, it feels like your comment is missing the forest for one particular (perhaps rotten) tree. Firstly, addressing your argument: A lot of people shell over 1000$ and weeks of time on Thinkpad reworks that reuse older chassis but have upgraded components (See: The X210[0], the X62[1], the T430 modders[2], etc.[3][4]), not only is money clearly not an issue in this particular niché, the look of the machine isn't either. Secondly: Regardless of the exact dynamics in play, the parent post completely spectacularly missed the point of the article in question. [0]: https://geoff.greer.fm/2019/03/04/thinkpad-x210/ https://geoff.greer.fm/2019/03/04/thinkpad-x210/ [1]: https://geoff.greer.fm/2017/07/16/thinkpad-x62/ https://geoff.greer.fm/2017/07/16/thinkpad-x62/ [2]: https://medium.com/@n4ru/the-definitive-t430-modding-guide-3dff3f6a8e2e https://medium.com/@n4ru/the-definitive-t430-modding-guide-3... [3]: https://www.reddit.com/r/thinkpad/wiki/index https://www.reddit.com/r/thinkpad/wiki/index [4]: https://www.bobble.tech/free-stuff/used-thinkpad-buyers-guide https://www.bobble.tech/free-stuff/used-thinkpad-buyers-guid...
- Spooky23 7y ago
  I definitely think there are customers — I carried a rebuilt T5xx for a few years! The issue is the market changed about 8-10 years ago. I used to buy 20-30k desktops a year. 80% were the shitty commodity HP/Dell (example would be the HP Probook middle of the line). 20% were nicer devices like Thinkpads. The change was that high end use cases vanished as Intel started failing, so we’d buy more memory instead of a better device. The laptop use cases that remain all went Mac. Nobody cares about the quality or repairability of the average device. Service is outsourced and dominated by labor cost, a Dell PC tech is billed out as low as $25/visit and just replaces boxes. A competent tech who can rebuild computers will cost like $90k (in an out of the way place) and only be able to service 2-4 devices a day. You’re looking at 5-7x the cost for a benefit that nobody cares about. The market wants cheap commodity. There are probably 250k enthusiasts who would give a hoot about PCs, but their number is shrinking and the market has consolidated into a couple of big players, who won’t make enough money to invest in the market.