4 ms·

What So Many People Don’t Get About the U.S. Working Class

34 points by gamechangr 7y ago

Mathnerd314 7y ago
[2016], previously https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12938039 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12938039
- downerending 7y ago
  It'd be very interesting to see a dispassionate update on what has changed and what hasn't in the last three-plus years. (My guess: not much.) I grew up surrounded by these people, and I miss them. They were crusty and had many problems, but they were also the salt of the earth in a way hard to imagine these days. Mostly blue-collar Democrats. Picture Mike Rowe's show maybe. One in our neighborhood, who lived on a main road, would regularly invite hobos (homeless, for you kids) to their family dinner table, feed them a hot meal, and send them on their way. Not particularly from some religious motivation. Rather, it was more like "We're all Americans, and we stick up for each other". That's an ethos, a feeling, that we all (and Democrats in particular) need to recapture, in my opinion.
  - dfxm12 7y ago
    Rather, it was more like "We're all Americans, and we stick up for each other". That's an ethos, a feeling, that we all (and Democrats in particular) need to recapture, in my opinion. When you say Democrats, do you mean voters and/or politicians? Why do you think they don't, in particular, stick up for Americans?
goodoldneon 7y ago
Wow. That should be required reading.
sudosteph 7y ago
Seems like a lot of the points the author calls out as ignored by democrats are now talking points in Andrew Yang stump speeches. His campaign hasn't exactly taken off, but it's certainly struck a nerve with at least some folks. I expect we will start to see this sort of left-populism continue to grow, with UBI specifically becoming more popular as a counter to the perceived unfairness of means tested. One particular subject that this article mentions, and that I didn't initially agree with until I read one of Yang's books - is the notion that human labor markets are actually very inelastic, and don't self correct easily. People choose jobs for reasons that are often based on identity, not on economics. I may not agree with this particular author's point on masculinity being why Hillary lost - I do agree that is the root cause for many working men not taking pink collar jobs even if desperate. The reverse happens too - many women would never work construction or truck driving even if it pays well. With that in mind, it is fundamentally much easier to craft policy that provides alternative jobs and income opportunities than it is to change a person's sense of identity or society's sense of masculinity. So again, it comes back to economic policy (like UBI) needng to be front and center. One last thing - many working class people are enterprising and do want to start businesses, even if that's impractical. Min wage increases and paid time off don't help you do that, and they also dont mean anything for people who work gig jobs / contract to pay the bills. So while UBI isn't perfect, it does appeal to that aspirational element more than other left economic policies.
- foogazi 7y ago
  > Seems like a lot of the points the author calls out as ignored by democrats are now talking points in Andrew Yang stump speeches. Not sure how getting government handouts squares with people that want to do “manly work”
  - manicdee 7y ago
    As coveted in the comment: UBI provides a safety net so you can take risks with new ventures. It’s not a hand out it’s a hand up.
  - sudosteph 7y ago
    Look at how Yang is branding it though - he never calls it a "handout" or "welfare" - it's a "freedom dividend" for "citizen stakeholders". As goofy as that sounds (to me at least) - he's intentionally using capitalistic terms give listeners some mental distance between "thing I received because people felt bad for me(handout)" and "thing I am deserve because I have made contributions(dividend)". And the masculinity thing was mostly in regards to why retraining attempts frequently fail even if there is demand. He said this recently, and though it's overly simplistic - I think it does kinda capture the resistance that people do have to changing their ideas of themselves and their work dramatically. > “I was just at a truck stop in Iowa,” Andrew Yang says on Fox. He says if you told those truckers you were going to retrain them to be computer programmers, they “would be more likely to punch you in the face than to sign up.”
- Gibbon1 7y ago
  > People choose jobs for reasons that are often based on identity, not on economics ... the root cause for many working men not taking pink collar jobs even if desperate Two anecdotes. One was a comment by an architect mentioning his father's rage when he told him he was going to college to be an architect instead of following his brothers into the shipyards. The other was when I was a kid some of the other little kids would try to tease me and my brother with the refrain 'your dads a secretary because he works in the office'. Meaning their dad's were manly machinists working at FMC and Lockheed. And my dad was pantywaist engineer working in the office.
atwebb 7y ago
A bit of a reminder that things don't move as fast as we think they might: >Otto just delivered the first self-driving truck shipment. In a few short years, the most common job in what was it, 30 or so states? It'll be all but gone.
93po 7y ago
>Isn’t what happened to Clinton unfair? Of course it is. It is unfair that she wasn’t a plausible candidate until she was so overqualified she was suddenly unqualified due to past mistakes Hah. How is HRC royally screwing up multiple times in the national spotlight and her losing as a result "unfair"? > The election shows that sexism retains a deeper hold than most imagined. Citation needed. This argument is as tiring and boring as the Russian conspiracy theory
- oceanghost 7y ago
  She subverted the nomination of a more popular candidate (Bernie Sanders), called anyone who didn't support her (her potential voters) "deplorable" then dared the country to vote for Trump, and the country called her bluff. She still might have won without Russian interference, but, if there were no illegal e-mail servers to hack, she wouldn't have been in that situation.
  - Sohcahtoa82 7y ago
    > called anyone who didn't support her (her potential voters) "deplorable" Not quite accurate. The exact quote is: "You know, to just be grossly generalistic, you could put half of Trump's supporters into what I call the basket of deplorables. (Laughter/applause) Right? (Laughter/applause) They're racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic – Islamophobic – you name it." While "half" might be an exaggeration, I don't think she's generally wrong. Patriot Prayer, Proud Boys, all these other white supremacy groups, they're all right-wing and love Trump.
    - oceanghost 7y ago
      I think you underestimate the number of people who urgently need real, substantive change in this country. Voting for Hillary is not palatable to those people.
      - Sohcahtoa82 7y ago
        > I think you underestimate the number of people who urgently need real, substantive change in this country. I don't. I just disagree with what "change" they need. It's pretty silly to think that a rich corporate CEO and reality TV star would have the best interests of blue collar workers in mind. He preyed on their prejudices to earn votes.
otterley 7y ago
(2016)

34 points by gamechangr 7y ago

Mathnerd314 7y ago

[2016], previously https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12938039 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12938039

downerending 7y ago
It'd be very interesting to see a dispassionate update on what has changed and what hasn't in the last three-plus years. (My guess: not much.) I grew up surrounded by these people, and I miss them. They were crusty and had many problems, but they were also the salt of the earth in a way hard to imagine these days. Mostly blue-collar Democrats. Picture Mike Rowe's show maybe. One in our neighborhood, who lived on a main road, would regularly invite hobos (homeless, for you kids) to their family dinner table, feed them a hot meal, and send them on their way. Not particularly from some religious motivation. Rather, it was more like "We're all Americans, and we stick up for each other". That's an ethos, a feeling, that we all (and Democrats in particular) need to recapture, in my opinion.
- dfxm12 7y ago
  Rather, it was more like "We're all Americans, and we stick up for each other". That's an ethos, a feeling, that we all (and Democrats in particular) need to recapture, in my opinion. When you say Democrats, do you mean voters and/or politicians? Why do you think they don't, in particular, stick up for Americans?

goodoldneon 7y ago

Wow. That should be required reading.

sudosteph 7y ago

Seems like a lot of the points the author calls out as ignored by democrats are now talking points in Andrew Yang stump speeches. His campaign hasn't exactly taken off, but it's certainly struck a nerve with at least some folks. I expect we will start to see this sort of left-populism continue to grow, with UBI specifically becoming more popular as a counter to the perceived unfairness of means tested. One particular subject that this article mentions, and that I didn't initially agree with until I read one of Yang's books - is the notion that human labor markets are actually very inelastic, and don't self correct easily. People choose jobs for reasons that are often based on identity, not on economics. I may not agree with this particular author's point on masculinity being why Hillary lost - I do agree that is the root cause for many working men not taking pink collar jobs even if desperate. The reverse happens too - many women would never work construction or truck driving even if it pays well. With that in mind, it is fundamentally much easier to craft policy that provides alternative jobs and income opportunities than it is to change a person's sense of identity or society's sense of masculinity. So again, it comes back to economic policy (like UBI) needng to be front and center. One last thing - many working class people are enterprising and do want to start businesses, even if that's impractical. Min wage increases and paid time off don't help you do that, and they also dont mean anything for people who work gig jobs / contract to pay the bills. So while UBI isn't perfect, it does appeal to that aspirational element more than other left economic policies.

foogazi 7y ago
> Seems like a lot of the points the author calls out as ignored by democrats are now talking points in Andrew Yang stump speeches. Not sure how getting government handouts squares with people that want to do “manly work”
- manicdee 7y ago
  As coveted in the comment: UBI provides a safety net so you can take risks with new ventures. It’s not a hand out it’s a hand up.
- sudosteph 7y ago
  Look at how Yang is branding it though - he never calls it a "handout" or "welfare" - it's a "freedom dividend" for "citizen stakeholders". As goofy as that sounds (to me at least) - he's intentionally using capitalistic terms give listeners some mental distance between "thing I received because people felt bad for me(handout)" and "thing I am deserve because I have made contributions(dividend)". And the masculinity thing was mostly in regards to why retraining attempts frequently fail even if there is demand. He said this recently, and though it's overly simplistic - I think it does kinda capture the resistance that people do have to changing their ideas of themselves and their work dramatically. > “I was just at a truck stop in Iowa,” Andrew Yang says on Fox. He says if you told those truckers you were going to retrain them to be computer programmers, they “would be more likely to punch you in the face than to sign up.”
Gibbon1 7y ago
> People choose jobs for reasons that are often based on identity, not on economics ... the root cause for many working men not taking pink collar jobs even if desperate Two anecdotes. One was a comment by an architect mentioning his father's rage when he told him he was going to college to be an architect instead of following his brothers into the shipyards. The other was when I was a kid some of the other little kids would try to tease me and my brother with the refrain 'your dads a secretary because he works in the office'. Meaning their dad's were manly machinists working at FMC and Lockheed. And my dad was pantywaist engineer working in the office.

atwebb 7y ago

A bit of a reminder that things don't move as fast as we think they might: >Otto just delivered the first self-driving truck shipment. In a few short years, the most common job in what was it, 30 or so states? It'll be all but gone.

93po 7y ago

>Isn’t what happened to Clinton unfair? Of course it is. It is unfair that she wasn’t a plausible candidate until she was so overqualified she was suddenly unqualified due to past mistakes Hah. How is HRC royally screwing up multiple times in the national spotlight and her losing as a result "unfair"? > The election shows that sexism retains a deeper hold than most imagined. Citation needed. This argument is as tiring and boring as the Russian conspiracy theory

oceanghost 7y ago
She subverted the nomination of a more popular candidate (Bernie Sanders), called anyone who didn't support her (her potential voters) "deplorable" then dared the country to vote for Trump, and the country called her bluff. She still might have won without Russian interference, but, if there were no illegal e-mail servers to hack, she wouldn't have been in that situation.
- Sohcahtoa82 7y ago
  > called anyone who didn't support her (her potential voters) "deplorable" Not quite accurate. The exact quote is: "You know, to just be grossly generalistic, you could put half of Trump's supporters into what I call the basket of deplorables. (Laughter/applause) Right? (Laughter/applause) They're racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic – Islamophobic – you name it." While "half" might be an exaggeration, I don't think she's generally wrong. Patriot Prayer, Proud Boys, all these other white supremacy groups, they're all right-wing and love Trump.
  - oceanghost 7y ago
    I think you underestimate the number of people who urgently need real, substantive change in this country. Voting for Hillary is not palatable to those people.
    - Sohcahtoa82 7y ago
      > I think you underestimate the number of people who urgently need real, substantive change in this country. I don't. I just disagree with what "change" they need. It's pretty silly to think that a rich corporate CEO and reality TV star would have the best interests of blue collar workers in mind. He preyed on their prejudices to earn votes.

otterley 7y ago

(2016)