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> The US has essentially on omnipotent traditional military force that can either engage or assure mutual destruction of any opponent on the earth. Nobody can c

> The US has essentially on omnipotent traditional military force that can either engage or assure mutual destruction of any opponent on the earth. Nobody can compete successfully. How many times in the past two years have our boats crashed into one another? The F35 program is a complete failure. When we ran Hormuzi wargames, a rag-tag group that fought through guerilla warfare won until our Navy cried and made the other side "fight fair." In the past 80 years the only win we can claim is the Gulf War. This is seriously overstating our military capabilities.

1_2__4 7y ago
This is an unfathomably uninformed comment that seems mostly driven by animus against military strength than anything else.
- ianleeclark 7y ago
  Good to know
- jessaustin 7y ago
  ...animus against military strength... You say that as if it would be a bad thing...
PakG1 7y ago
Yes, the US sucks at winning wars. At the same time, I'm not sure what other nation is capable of waging war on the scale of the US. Perhaps the war on a large scale is just an intractable problem that cannot be solved, and the US is the only country that even tries. Not that I think that's a good thing. War in general sucks.
- ianleeclark 7y ago
  > At the same time, I'm not sure what other nation is capable of waging war on the scale of the US. My inclination is that China would be perfectly capable of doing so, but that they have more effective jobs programs than the States.
  - PakG1 7y ago
    No, if you do a side-by-side comparison, China may do a good job of defending their region, but they would be completely unable to project their power or enter a different theater of war without leaving themselves defenseless. It's no contest at the moment. Besides the fact that due to its unfortunate foreign policy, the US also gets a LOT of practice waging war, where as the modern Chinese military has almost zero real-life war experience.
    - mlrtime 7y ago
      This is a interesting thought, is there an literature stating a strategic advantage to starting mini wars to train in real warfare?
- syshum 7y ago
  Neither side would win a War.. there would be no winners, just survivors, with both economies reduced to almost nothing, both population decimated both by direct costs and indirect( poverty, famine, etc) costs No the idea that either China or America would "win" a war with each other is naive at best
jvanderbot 7y ago
But, a war with China (direct conflict) would be the Naval set-piece battle the US has been dreaming of for decades. Much like how Iraq was the combined arms showcase dreamed of post Cold War. US has struggled at asymmetric combat against regional bad actors, as evidenced nearly everywhere, but your assertion that somehow China would be able to leverage that type of warfighting when their O&G infrastructure and major threat projection airbases are on islands or near shore does not compute. It would be ugly, not straightforward, not "Iraq on water" ... but it would be much different than wargames in geographically tight confines with limited rules of engagement. The US and allies still do hold the Pacific mostly as their own backyard, and that would need to change to tip the balance toward China.
- ianleeclark 7y ago
  > your assertion that somehow China would be able to leverage that type of warfighting I'm not saying that, I'm that the entirety of the US military is incompetent and pumped too full of cash (despite its many failures) that's it's ridiculous to act like no one can compete. > The US and allies I know we like to take our satellite states for granted, but that day will come to an end and it seems likely that taking real action against China could be the catalyst.
  - jvanderbot 7y ago
    I hear you and I see the consistency of your arguments, and acknowledge development and production failures and large budgets, but disagree it implies incompetence across the board.
  - infecto 7y ago
    I agree its pumped full of cash but I think you would be surprised at how much worse the Chinese military can be.
  - PeterisP 7y ago
    I feel that the ally situation is entirely different - they are USA allies solely for protection against China, and in any real conflict against China the interests of China would be mostly limited to ensuring a regional win against those countries, and the USA would have the choice of either taking real action against China by supporting these allies or not take action and abandon them.
papreclip 7y ago
To be clear, the war games had US military playing the part of the fictional middle-east enemy. This story was news to me and you made it sound a lot more interesting than it turned out to be
anoonmoose 7y ago
If you ignore the fact that the US always fights with both hands tied behind its back then this take is almost only slightly inaccurate. The US won a war in Afghanistan and two in Iraq. Now, the occupations afterwards? Different story.
Spooky23 7y ago
> When we ran Hormuzi wargames, a rag-tag group that fought through guerilla warfare won until our Navy cried and made the other side "fight fair." Wargames are designed to teach lessons. Example: https://time.com/5772665/uboat-wargames https://time.com/5772665/uboat-wargames That exercise happened in 2002, after the USS Cole bombing in 2000 ashore with a similar attack. How many warships were sunk by speedboats in the last 18 years?

1_2__4 7y ago

This is an unfathomably uninformed comment that seems mostly driven by animus against military strength than anything else.

ianleeclark 7y ago
Good to know
jessaustin 7y ago
...animus against military strength... You say that as if it would be a bad thing...

PakG1 7y ago

Yes, the US sucks at winning wars. At the same time, I'm not sure what other nation is capable of waging war on the scale of the US. Perhaps the war on a large scale is just an intractable problem that cannot be solved, and the US is the only country that even tries. Not that I think that's a good thing. War in general sucks.

ianleeclark 7y ago
> At the same time, I'm not sure what other nation is capable of waging war on the scale of the US. My inclination is that China would be perfectly capable of doing so, but that they have more effective jobs programs than the States.
- PakG1 7y ago
  No, if you do a side-by-side comparison, China may do a good job of defending their region, but they would be completely unable to project their power or enter a different theater of war without leaving themselves defenseless. It's no contest at the moment. Besides the fact that due to its unfortunate foreign policy, the US also gets a LOT of practice waging war, where as the modern Chinese military has almost zero real-life war experience.
  - mlrtime 7y ago
    This is a interesting thought, is there an literature stating a strategic advantage to starting mini wars to train in real warfare?
syshum 7y ago
Neither side would win a War.. there would be no winners, just survivors, with both economies reduced to almost nothing, both population decimated both by direct costs and indirect( poverty, famine, etc) costs No the idea that either China or America would "win" a war with each other is naive at best

jvanderbot 7y ago

But, a war with China (direct conflict) would be the Naval set-piece battle the US has been dreaming of for decades. Much like how Iraq was the combined arms showcase dreamed of post Cold War. US has struggled at asymmetric combat against regional bad actors, as evidenced nearly everywhere, but your assertion that somehow China would be able to leverage that type of warfighting when their O&G infrastructure and major threat projection airbases are on islands or near shore does not compute. It would be ugly, not straightforward, not "Iraq on water" ... but it would be much different than wargames in geographically tight confines with limited rules of engagement. The US and allies still do hold the Pacific mostly as their own backyard, and that would need to change to tip the balance toward China.

ianleeclark 7y ago
> your assertion that somehow China would be able to leverage that type of warfighting I'm not saying that, I'm that the entirety of the US military is incompetent and pumped too full of cash (despite its many failures) that's it's ridiculous to act like no one can compete. > The US and allies I know we like to take our satellite states for granted, but that day will come to an end and it seems likely that taking real action against China could be the catalyst.
- jvanderbot 7y ago
  I hear you and I see the consistency of your arguments, and acknowledge development and production failures and large budgets, but disagree it implies incompetence across the board.
- infecto 7y ago
  I agree its pumped full of cash but I think you would be surprised at how much worse the Chinese military can be.
- PeterisP 7y ago
  I feel that the ally situation is entirely different - they are USA allies solely for protection against China, and in any real conflict against China the interests of China would be mostly limited to ensuring a regional win against those countries, and the USA would have the choice of either taking real action against China by supporting these allies or not take action and abandon them.

papreclip 7y ago

To be clear, the war games had US military playing the part of the fictional middle-east enemy. This story was news to me and you made it sound a lot more interesting than it turned out to be

anoonmoose 7y ago

If you ignore the fact that the US always fights with both hands tied behind its back then this take is almost only slightly inaccurate. The US won a war in Afghanistan and two in Iraq. Now, the occupations afterwards? Different story.

Spooky23 7y ago

> When we ran Hormuzi wargames, a rag-tag group that fought through guerilla warfare won until our Navy cried and made the other side "fight fair." Wargames are designed to teach lessons. Example: https://time.com/5772665/uboat-wargames https://time.com/5772665/uboat-wargames That exercise happened in 2002, after the USS Cole bombing in 2000 ashore with a similar attack. How many warships were sunk by speedboats in the last 18 years?