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> mutation from non-chicken parents Only tangentially related, but that invokes the Sorites paradox: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sorites_paradox https://en.w

by Cpoll 7y ago

> mutation from non-chicken parents Only tangentially related, but that invokes the Sorites paradox: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sorites_paradox https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sorites_paradox If you follow the thought exercise further, there's other considerations: The first chicken may not have had any other chickens to mate with.

whatshisface 7y ago
The protochickens and chickens would at that point be so similar that a protochicken and chicken mating would probably have half of their offspring be chickens. At that point you're talking about one single DNA base difference, or something like that. If you were to watch it happen, it would be a very gradual gradient, and the only way to differentiate chicken from protochicken would be to match them up against an arbitrary list of qualities.
SiempreViernes 7y ago
Yeah, ”species” is a vague concept and so biologists fight an endless war over where the limit goes from case to case, perhaps ocasionally cursing Linnaeus for coming up with the idea of a single ordering in the first place.
- contingo 7y ago
  There are many co-existing species concepts used in practice that are statistically rigorously defined, selected according to the biology of the lineage in question (e.g. it makes little sense to apply the same concept to both recombining and asexual lineages). It's an intensively researched area that becomes more refined and more explanatory with time, like any other area of science. Delving into the recent literature might enable you to make a less clumsy critique. Independently evolving units of biological diversity exist. Any accurate knowledge about them, and about all the edge cases and fuzzinesses and genetic phenomena that make systematization complicated, comes from biology itself.
nkrisc 7y ago
If you took a chicken today, and looked at every single one if its direct ancestors down its lineage for the past billion generations, any single ancestor would probably be indistinguishable from their own parents, yet the last ancestor would look nothing like the chicken. It's because the incremental change with each generation is absolutely tiny, but those changes are magnified as they accumulate over countless generations.
- mikepurvis 7y ago
  The same is true about the evolution of language. Parents and their own kids can always communicate just fine, but across 5, 10, 20 generations it can be completely unrecognizable (see: Middle English).
  - thedirt0115 7y ago
    Do you think that this will still be the case now that we have the internet? I wonder if the English of 3000 AD will be as different from 2000 AD as 2000 AD is from 1000 AD. I feel like the big players in tech have the capability to direct language evolution somewhat. Consider the pronunciation feature Google offers if you look up the definition of a word (the little speaker icon) -- the pronunciation they provide there could influence learners. I'm not suggesting anything insidious, just recognizing the potential that seems to be there.
    - 74ls00 7y ago
      You make an interesting point, but I’m not sure I find it entirely convincing. To feel out the limits of your argument, what is it that you see as fundamentally different between the Internet and the dawn of recorded sound? The ubiquity, the geographical homogeneity, and ease of recording? Would the same argument apply to vocabulary and spelling of the written word?
      - thedirt0115 7y ago
        I'm not trying to convince anyone, I myself don't know! Yes all around to your questions though, pretty much. Cheaper, faster, easier, etc. What do you think the effect of spellcheck technology will be on the rate of change of the spelling of words? We increasingly _let computers write for us!_ Google Smart Compose, Grammarly, etc. In my opinion, these things are leading to the homogenization of spelling, pronunciation, and even word choice all across the world.
mannykannot 7y ago
Relating the question of species-ness to the sorities paradox is more than tangential - quite insightful, in fact. An individual that is too different from its peers to breed is never the founder of a new species, so the concept of 'first chicken' is at best a matter of convention, and is more likely to add confusion rather than insight.
gus_massa 7y ago
The idea of "species" is only a good simplification that work 99.99% of the time. Just to add some confusion, the border of species is fuzzy in time, but in some strange cases it is fuzzy in space https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ring_species https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ring_species

by Cpoll 7y ago

whatshisface 7y ago

The protochickens and chickens would at that point be so similar that a protochicken and chicken mating would probably have half of their offspring be chickens. At that point you're talking about one single DNA base difference, or something like that. If you were to watch it happen, it would be a very gradual gradient, and the only way to differentiate chicken from protochicken would be to match them up against an arbitrary list of qualities.

SiempreViernes 7y ago

Yeah, ”species” is a vague concept and so biologists fight an endless war over where the limit goes from case to case, perhaps ocasionally cursing Linnaeus for coming up with the idea of a single ordering in the first place.

contingo 7y ago
There are many co-existing species concepts used in practice that are statistically rigorously defined, selected according to the biology of the lineage in question (e.g. it makes little sense to apply the same concept to both recombining and asexual lineages). It's an intensively researched area that becomes more refined and more explanatory with time, like any other area of science. Delving into the recent literature might enable you to make a less clumsy critique. Independently evolving units of biological diversity exist. Any accurate knowledge about them, and about all the edge cases and fuzzinesses and genetic phenomena that make systematization complicated, comes from biology itself.

nkrisc 7y ago

If you took a chicken today, and looked at every single one if its direct ancestors down its lineage for the past billion generations, any single ancestor would probably be indistinguishable from their own parents, yet the last ancestor would look nothing like the chicken. It's because the incremental change with each generation is absolutely tiny, but those changes are magnified as they accumulate over countless generations.

mikepurvis 7y ago
The same is true about the evolution of language. Parents and their own kids can always communicate just fine, but across 5, 10, 20 generations it can be completely unrecognizable (see: Middle English).
- thedirt0115 7y ago
  Do you think that this will still be the case now that we have the internet? I wonder if the English of 3000 AD will be as different from 2000 AD as 2000 AD is from 1000 AD. I feel like the big players in tech have the capability to direct language evolution somewhat. Consider the pronunciation feature Google offers if you look up the definition of a word (the little speaker icon) -- the pronunciation they provide there could influence learners. I'm not suggesting anything insidious, just recognizing the potential that seems to be there.
  - 74ls00 7y ago
    You make an interesting point, but I’m not sure I find it entirely convincing. To feel out the limits of your argument, what is it that you see as fundamentally different between the Internet and the dawn of recorded sound? The ubiquity, the geographical homogeneity, and ease of recording? Would the same argument apply to vocabulary and spelling of the written word?
    - thedirt0115 7y ago
      I'm not trying to convince anyone, I myself don't know! Yes all around to your questions though, pretty much. Cheaper, faster, easier, etc. What do you think the effect of spellcheck technology will be on the rate of change of the spelling of words? We increasingly _let computers write for us!_ Google Smart Compose, Grammarly, etc. In my opinion, these things are leading to the homogenization of spelling, pronunciation, and even word choice all across the world.

mannykannot 7y ago

Relating the question of species-ness to the sorities paradox is more than tangential - quite insightful, in fact. An individual that is too different from its peers to breed is never the founder of a new species, so the concept of 'first chicken' is at best a matter of convention, and is more likely to add confusion rather than insight.

gus_massa 7y ago

The idea of "species" is only a good simplification that work 99.99% of the time. Just to add some confusion, the border of species is fuzzy in time, but in some strange cases it is fuzzy in space https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ring_species https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ring_species